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Post by eeyore on May 8, 2006 21:50:14 GMT -7
Hey all! I pop in from time to time to see if any new drivers have been made available. I noticed the "rumors" of some 18" drivers that "may" be around $600 when bought in lots of 4 or more. Last year I bought 4 AE IB15's for my basement with the intent of buying more when I was financially able. When I was able I found out that there are no more for purchase. With my luck I will need more but 4 15's or 4 18's will probably be my limit. Now I am wondering if I should buy 4 more 15's or if I should sell my 15's and buy the 18's. I know that we don't have the specs yet but we can dream. Area is about 7000 cubic feet and 4 15" drivers @ 200watts per driver isn't gettin' it done. When I made my manifold so that I could simply cut the 15" holes into 18" holes so conversion would be easier to buy the 18"s. Would I be able to get a good price for my 15's? I live in the Chicago area so I would probably try to sell them locally so that shipping doesn't cut into my sales.
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Post by ThomasW on May 9, 2006 7:42:07 GMT -7
There will be more AE IB-15"s available. Time line should be a couple of months before people can buy them.
8-15"s will certainly move more air than 4-18"s if the Xmax of both are the same.
I have no idea what people will pay for used IB-15"s
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Post by eeyore on May 9, 2006 8:29:24 GMT -7
thank you Sir!
I will, more than likely, go with the AE IB15's so that I don't have to go through the trouble of selling and shipping those huge drivers.
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ryans
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Post by ryans on May 9, 2006 19:34:16 GMT -7
So I'm curious what you mean when you say 4 15's aren't getting it done. Are the drivers bottoming? Are you clipping the amp?
I've got a similar space to fill and 4 15's with 250 watts TOTAL makes me happy. But then again, with a 19Hz rumble filter on my plate amp I don't even have a chance to overdrive these woofers.
Anyway, I'm just curious. I hear guys say they needed more and I wonder what, exactly, was the "need".
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garyk
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Post by garyk on May 10, 2006 8:30:05 GMT -7
eeyore-- I ran into the same dilemma with my 6500 cubic foot room. The 4 AE IB 15's sounded great but not quite to the level I wanted. I was not smart enough to think ahead like you did and build my manifold with the 18 inch upgrade in mind. I ended up adding 4 more AE IB 15's in a second stage manifold as shown here. i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/IsTheFloorMoving/Infinite%20Baffle%20Subwoofer/4449a96a.jpg I am very happy with the results now. I have more than enough volume:) The addition of a second stage to your system may or may not be possible but if it is, then I highly recommend it. I think that Johns AE IB 15's are a heck of a bargain and worth waiting for. Plus, if you still need more, you could always upgrade to 8 18's:) Thomas could you upgrade my picture on the Map to reflect the 2 stage manifold? Thanks GaryK in Disney, OK
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Post by eeyore on May 11, 2006 19:03:23 GMT -7
not overdriving the woofers. Very nice drivers. Just really big space.
I'm using a behringer 1500 at 4 ohms (about 200watts each driver). Not clipping amp or bottoming out.
The sub makes the whole house shake when appropriate.
When I equalized the sub the graph showed that the sub went pretty flat to about 18hz if I remember correctly.
It just doesn't thrill me unless the bass shakers are on.
It sounds very clean but there are times when you know that it isn't enough.
there is a scene in Kill Bill where the bride gets shot.
I watched it with everything on and then with the shakers off.
with the shakers on you could feel the concussion from the gunshot.
With the shakers off you could not.
Looking at four 15" woofers you would expect to be able to feel it without shakers.
Sounds nice and clean though.
Just isn't enough to pressurize the room.
I will probably never be able to afford enough drivers or space to do it.
Whatever I decide, I know that the next "upgrade" will be my last in this house unless the drivers fail.
I'll continue to wait to see what is offered and make my decision.
The decision will be based on the specs/price of the 18's and resale value of 15's.
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ryans
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Post by ryans on May 11, 2006 19:39:24 GMT -7
Interesting. So its possible that you actually still have some or even a lot of headroom left. If you add more woofers and amplification and then equalize it flat again, won't you be back where you started?
I'd be tempted to play around with increasing the sub level or maybe a house curve on the EQ. It would only cost you some time ... and not nearly as much time as rebuilding the IB.
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Post by eeyore on May 12, 2006 18:09:44 GMT -7
Perhaps I could get more out of what I have and I would be happy but I doubt that it would still be enough.
Right now the sub output is equal to the rest of my speakers with the gain half-way up on the amp and at 0 on my receiver.
I do have headroom to spare and I doubt that I would bottom the drivers by turning up the gain.
I had thought about a curve but the appeal of the IB to me was the ability to go low without losing anything.
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ryans
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Post by ryans on May 12, 2006 18:27:02 GMT -7
"Right now the sub output is equal to the rest of my speakers with the gain half-way up on the amp and at 0 on my receiver."
Unfortunately this doesn't really give a reliable reference for how hard you're driving the system. Too many variables.
"I do have headroom to spare and I doubt that I would bottom the drivers by turning up the gain."
Okay, so what do you expect to get by adding more woofers that you wouldn't get by turning up the gain and/or playing with the EQ? What would you "lose" by applying a curve?
To me this sounds like: "I wish my car would accelerate a bit faster than it does. I'm pushing the gas pedal part way down and I'm just not getting enough." "Have you tried flooring it?" "No, I think I'm going to trade in for something with a bigger engine."
There's a fair chance you could achieve your goals without spending any more money. Or maybe I'm approaching this from the wrong angle ... are you trying to guarantee overkill?
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Post by eeyore on May 13, 2006 18:57:37 GMT -7
I don't see why I would want to make my subwoofer so stupidly loud that it doesn't blend in with my other speakers.
If I go into the room on the backside of the drivers while a movie is playing I get the effect that I want. It is a much smaller room so I expect the sub to deliver in that environment.
When there is an explosion in a movie and you are in that room you feel it to the bone. You don't need bass shakers or the like.
You don't feel it in the main room.
The four IB's are not enough to pressurize the main room. I don't know if eight will or not.
One way to find out.
As i'm sure you read. I am not alone in having a room this size and wanting/needing 8 drivers to do the job.
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garyk
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Post by garyk on May 14, 2006 7:19:42 GMT -7
For what it is worth, I too was running 4 Aura bass shakers on the underside of my wood floor BEFORE I installed an IB. I was using them in conjunction with a Sunfire sub and they did make a nice addition to the effect. (The tank scene in Saving Private Ryan is still my test reference:) After I installed the 8 AE IB15's in my floor mounted manifold, I found that the shakers were not necessary. The IB was shaking the floor so violently that I got goose bumps!! Since you are not mounting the drivers in the floor your mileage will vary:)
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brady
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Post by brady on May 14, 2006 7:57:06 GMT -7
As any driver approaches it's maximum output the sound quality will begin to suffer. The cure for this is more drivers or drivers capable of more output. One benefit of more drivers is more efficiency, of course it wouldn't hurt to just turn it up and see what happens
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Post by chrisbee on May 14, 2006 13:19:48 GMT -7
I was surprised at the difference betwen my IB and my other sub in the village battle scene. We all hear and feel the tension as the menacing tanks manoeuvre out of sight and then finally enter the village.
While an ordinary sub may go very loud and shake the house. (though rather monotonously) The IB sounds and feels much more like big diesel engines hard at work instead of artificially generated LF rumble.
Now I'm hoping it wasn't really electronic rumble. If so, it was very well done! ;D
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Post by eeyore on May 14, 2006 15:17:08 GMT -7
That's exactly why I want more. The difference is clear once you have experienced it.
I hope to be able to move the shakers to another room and not lose the effect.
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ryans
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Post by ryans on May 14, 2006 21:06:25 GMT -7
Well, my real goal here was to get a feel for the limit of 4 moderate excursion 15's in an IB. It seems like the most popular question around here is "how many woofers do I need" and in order to answer this well we need to know the limits of the woofers. As I said, my IB (similar to yours in woofers and room size) is certainly plenty for me and I don't think I'm anywhere near Xmax - my amp is just not capable of that. So I'm definitely not at the limit and you've said that you don't think you're at the limit either.
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Post by allens on May 15, 2006 15:13:03 GMT -7
eeyore,
You say that you have your sub level set equal to your mains. Did you verify this with a sound level meter and a test dvd such as avia or sound and vision calibration dvd?
If it is equal to your mains, I say, and I'm speaking from personal experience that it won't be enough. I run my ib about 6-8 db hotter than the mains for movies with the avia subwoofer level calibration. I run it about 3 db hotter than my mains for music.
As mentioned before you should dial in a house curve, then set the overall level about 6 db hotter than you mains. I bet you find the effect you are missing. You have in your ib right now the speakers and the power to get the job done..... now go ahead and unleash it, seriously.
For movies the bass won't be overloaded or distorted, but it will have some force when you need it.
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Post by chrisbee on May 16, 2006 1:02:51 GMT -7
Increasing the number of drivers should also reduce distortion and increase dynamic range. So it will go even louder on the loud bits but you'll still be able to hear (even more clearly) what is happening. It would be interesting to hear a bass drum sounding and feeling exactly like a real drum. When I was a little kid the big drum always impressed (and frightened) me when I heard a marching band passing in the street. It still does! I was listening to some solo classical percussion on CD the other day. I was told off by my wife! ;D
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Post by carpenter on May 16, 2006 1:51:09 GMT -7
Very few women understand what drives a man. It's like... why do we do it? Because we can! John Ah, the wonders of possessing a smaller corpus callosum...
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brady
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Post by brady on May 16, 2006 4:59:11 GMT -7
When I had the 4 AEIB15 I could still just barely here my wife, swapping them with 18's fixed that ;D
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Post by nolook on May 16, 2006 17:57:25 GMT -7
Brady... Great line.. Loved it.. Yer my hero Eeyore.. If you have headroom to spare, use it.. Most (if not all) of us are running our amps near max, while keeping a deft ear for strained subs.. Make those puppies work for a living.. Run them harder for movies vs music.. Remember, the amps and woofers are just purring along, matching the mids and highs tit for tat.. Waiting on the thunder, if you will.. When the sound track calls for it, BAMM, they deliver.. Open the gates brother, and let the magic happen..
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