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Post by monroebobo on Sept 6, 2008 7:21:04 GMT -7
Hey guys Ive got an issue and not sure of the best way to solve it. I have done a lot of searches here and other forums in an attempt to avoid typing a long post I am a atrocious typer . I have a EP2500 now and have 4 AE IB 15s, a BFD 1124, DEQ2496, a EMC8000, and a couple other items all ordered this week and should be here soon. The AEs should ship monday. He said there was alot of orders for them in the last couple of weeks. I have an Onkyo TX DS 797. It has pre outs for 6.1. When I hook and existing sub to the sub out on the reciever it will only operate in stereo, Dolby, DTS or some signal that has been processed. My receiver has a " Direct Mode" . "Direct Mode "skips all the processors and acts a pure preamp. In this direct mode there is not a sub signal sent out (in the manual it States that no sub signal is sent out in direct mode). As you probably guess, is that I want a sub for the "Direct Mode". I listen to alot of 2 channel music and it is very important to me. My initial thought was to place a Y connector in the R or L main preout and plug the sub in there when listening to 2 channel music. And I could unplug the rca from the L or R preout and plug it into the Sub Out when watching music. Changing the RCA To Y connector for music and Subb Out for movies would only be a minor pain. I would like to get any other possibilites on a solution for this problem. Any help, thought or ideas will be greatly appreciated. Thanks Monroe
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Post by ThomasW on Sept 6, 2008 9:23:40 GMT -7
Set the processor to 'no/off' for the subwoofer setting , set the mains to 'large', all the other speakers are set to 'small '. Doing this sends the low bass to the mains when you're not in the 'direct' mode.
The main pre-out L&R signals are sent to an active electronic crossover where the low frequencies are split for the sub amp and the high frequencies are sent back to the receiver (hopeuflly it has separate .
This way you don't need to switch cables around when you go back and forth between 'processing' and 'direct' because with either setting the bass is in the main pre-outs...
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Post by monroebobo on Sept 6, 2008 20:04:50 GMT -7
I can be a bit slow at times. I got the first part. So I hook the L&R preouts from the reciever to the BFD and then send the low freq signal out of the BFD to the IB sub amp. The next part Im not sure of. "The high Freq are sent back to the reciever" Im not sure where to hook it up to the reciever. Ive heard of people have a "tape loop" If I have one its not called that. Heres a shot of my reciever. Thanks Monroe
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Post by ThomasW on Sept 6, 2008 22:17:17 GMT -7
For what I propose to work the receiver must have both preamp inputs and output. It doesn't have pre-amp inputs...
No you can't use a tape loop because it isn't effected by the volume control
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Post by chrisbee on Sept 7, 2008 13:58:14 GMT -7
As Thomas said: You don't seem to have Pre-in sockets for the separate audio channels on your AVR. So you can't return the line level audio signals from an active crossover to drive your Main speakers. So you'll have to forget the AV Receiver as your Mains speaker amplifier. Use an active crossover (CX2310 is inexpensive) to split your (Large) line level Mains output from your AVR into Subwoofer and Speaker as two sets of stereo channels separated at your chosen frequency. (~80Hz)
You feed the EP2500 with the line level stereo Low (Subwoofer) channels from the active crossover. Then all you need a stereo power amp with stereo line level in sockets to power your Main speakers. Or use an integrated stereo amp. Which must have stereo Pre-in sockets to accept the line level (High) channels from your active crossover. You have to set your Mains to Large or you won't have a full range signal for the active crossover to work on.
I don't use an AVR so I have to use an active crossover in my pre-power amplifier based system for both music and film. The only thing I change when switching from films to music is my preamp input selector. From DVDP to CDP or vice versa.
I use a Yamaha 3.1 channel amp/processor for my Centre and Rears which is only switched on for watching films or music DVDs. You can still use your Onkyo for this task simply by switching to DVDP on your AVR source selector.
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Post by monroebobo on Sept 7, 2008 21:09:10 GMT -7
I said this a few times in my posts here. I am really new to all the GEQ, PEQ active crossovers, room analyzers, and anything of the sort. If I ask questions, Im not doubting peoples knowledge I am just trying to reaffirm what I believe to be true from my very limited experience and knowledge. If I purchase anoyher EP2500, I can take the signal from the preout on the reciver and Split it with a Y and send one signal to the DEQ for the mains and the other to the BFD1124 for the subs. I will leave the signal coming from the reciever set to "large" front speakers and no sub on the " speaker config" . That way I will have a full range signal to play with in both the DEQ and BFD, while playing music. When I watch movies I can take the RCA from the BFD, disconnect it from the Y and Hook it to the SUB out on my Reciever( that way I can control the volume form it with my " LFE" signal. I would also Have to change my "sub no" to "sub yes". Thats what I was hoping to do. Does that sound like a good plan or should I do something else??? I can change the RCA from the "Y" to the "sub out" very easily. My only concern was that I would have some wear on the connection from the changing. Also will the DEQ perform all the task of the CX2310 you were talking about. My understanding is that it would. Funny thing happened tonight. I played around with the EP2500 with it hooked to my mains. Put my reciever in "2 Channel Stereo" mode and raiseed the bass on the tone controls. While listening to Eric Clapton Unplugged. Within 30 monutes my wife was tapping me on my shoulder to let me know that our next door neighbor was at the door. You guess it. He said the bass was loud enough to keep his daughter from getting to sleep. That is with 6.5" in each main and two 10" subs. LOL What in the heck is he going to say when I get my 4 AE IB 15s hooked up. Even though I didnt say this, I didnt want to believe him at first. Only good thing is he said he didnt have a problem with it on the weekends or nights there are no school and work the next day. All of our homes are new constuction and are at least 50 feet apart. I can see Im going to have to find a way of stoping the IB setup from reaching his home. Or stop it from leaving mine. Thanks Thomas and Crisbee for your help. Without this website I would have never attempted the IB sub thing. I would have ended up buying two Klipsch 12" subs and had a lot of boomy mess like I have now. Of course I am assuming the IB setup will sound as good as all you guys say it will. Thanks Monroe
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Post by ThomasW on Sept 7, 2008 22:07:21 GMT -7
There's no need to have something as powerful as a EP2500 for small mains. Behringer makes a nice inexpensive amp called an A500. That would do what you need. www.behringer.com/A500/index.cfmFWIW, using the DEQ2496 sends the signal through an analog to digital and digital to analog process. So why bother hassling with all this other stuff just to use the Direct Out
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Post by chrisbee on Sept 8, 2008 0:52:36 GMT -7
You may well be much less of a nuisance as an IB owner. Turning up the bass on a conventional subwoofer generates loads of very audible distortion. The IB produces so little distortion that there are no clearly audible distortion harmonics to carry over to your neighbours.
MY wife complains that she can't hear the beat from rock music outside (from the IB) even at a steady 100dB(C) indooors. With our SVS cylinder she could easily nod along to the beat while gardening despite having all the windows closed.
It is actually very difficult to hear the bass from the IB outside the house despite the leaky gable end forming one wall of the IB enclosure. Walking a few yards away from the gable end makes it inaudible.
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Post by monroebobo on Sept 8, 2008 17:56:01 GMT -7
I have read a lot from the AV and Audioholics forum reguarding the A500. I would need 2 of them, they would be cheaper and not have a fan. Thats a great Idea. I do like the sound of the Behringer amp on my mains. Maybe because it is like a new girlfriend. Give her time and something will show up. With the DEQ I was mainly wanting it for the ability to cut the mains at 100HZ. The Mains woofers are now are Xovered at 150. My thought is it would take some of the load of the woofers at high volume and cure some of the Boominess coming from the mains. I also think I may want to play with something like a house curve. To adjust the bass and treble. When I run in direct mode now I have no control over tone at all. I also think it may be fun to toy with. I say that like I dont think Ill like it. But for some reason I think I will. ....In some ways, I feel like Im doing this on the fly. Crisbee thats good news ,on the thought, that it wont get any worse. I was really cranking it last night. I built my HT room myself and used 2X6 walls with insulation to separate it from the rest of the house. I didnt consider that the neighbors would hear it. The 1124,mic, and cable came in today. The DEQ wont ship til later this week. John said my subs should ship today. Im starting to feelm like a kid in a candy store that hasnt checked out yet. I going to the North Carolina coast fishing for a week or two in October and would like to have this complete by then. With my schedule and projects that may be a tall order to fill. I would like you guys opinoin on the DEQ. First off, I dont mind alittle distortion from the system as long as Im getting all the other instruments to sound as I feel they should. Dire Straits "Telegraph Road" naturally has a ton of hiss in the recording on my CD. Yet I love the overall sound of it. Do you think I could use the DEQ to make a curve and still be pleased with the sound overall? I feel like a dumb ace for asking this question but here it goes. Thomas you referred to digital to analog conversions. Will that destroy the signal and will the Equipment take care of the conversions or do I need to buy more stuff. LOL "Stuff" is a technical term. As is "mash or mashed". Thanks A Ton Monroe
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Post by ThomasW on Sept 8, 2008 19:29:45 GMT -7
Thomas you referred to digital to analog conversions. IMO it's rather illogical to go to all this bother to use 'direct connect' then put digital EQ in the signal path.. "Telegraph Road" has been used as a reference recording by audio equipment mfgrs for years. I just listened to it. There's no higher noise floor than any other good recording. If you've hearing hiss it's either the equipment in your playback chain or output level you're using is at ear bleeding levels...
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Post by chrisbee on Sept 9, 2008 1:43:58 GMT -7
Monroe I'm a bit worried about your listening habits if you are hearing hiss. Do you own an SPL meter? If not get one and make it soon! Check your average listening levels using the A-weighting Slow setting on your SPL meter. You only need C-weighting for measuring bass. A-weighting is better at measuring noise levels as the readings aren't inflated by loud bass. Rock music is a loud noise as far as your hearing is concerned. That's nothing to do with good taste BTW just a matter of fact. Let's assume you are listening to typical rock music with your SPL meter in your hand. If you are listening at about 75-80dB(A) average you should not be risking your hearing too much. This is still very loud! This is the maximum average allowed in factories. So workers should not be exposed to higher noise levels than this during their working day. Some authorities think it is too high and Sweden is trying to lower noise levels to 70dB(A). Note that 80dB(A) average still makes conversations difficult with lots of repetitions, lip reading, hand waving and heads being brought close together to understand each other clearly. Below 75dB(A) is much nicer to work in than 80dB(A)! This only happens when the machines are turned off or there is a power cut. If you are listening at an average of 90dB(A) you should limit yourself to only half an hour or risk permanent hearing damage. If you are listening at 100dB you should never listen for more than 15-20 minutes at this level. It might be great fun occasionally but you are seriously risking permanent hearing damage! These are only very rough figures for industrial noise limits in Europe. Most office workers find 80dB(A) on the factory floor intolerable. They will not expose themselves to it for any longer than necessary before scuttling back to the 50dB(A) peace and quiet of their offices. There's a clear warning there for all of us! If you ever suffer from tinnitus or a feeling of pressure in the ears after a listening session you must get get your average levels down. You cannot regrow or repair your hearing. Being even slightly deaf is a very serious handicap. Regular attendees at rock concerts and night cubs are usually deaf to some degree. Having to ask people to repeat themselves for the rest of your life is a terrible bore. It makes crossing roads unsafe because you cannot hear quiet cars approaching. People will think you are stupid because you don't understand what they say! You lose your high frequencies first and high frequencies are particularly damaging to hearing. They are are also particularly useful for understanding speech. Lead guitar and keyboards lose their impact so you turn up the volume even more to compensate. Like an old lady watching TV. So don't be an old lady before your time! Fortunately bass seems to be fairly safe compared with the typical amplified wailing guitars, keyboards and rhythm guitar played energetically by typical rock musicians. Rock music is all high level with few quieter contrasts so the average levels are very high indeed and this is where the damage occurs. There is a tendency in producing music to keep average levels very high because it sells records. So they use electronic tricks to lift the quiet bits to the same level as the loudest bits. They ignore how boring this quickly becomes and how high the average distortion levels are. Metallica and Dire Straits got where they are today by having loudness contrasts in their music. They have quiet bits in between. So when the band lets loose again it has enormous impact. Your stealth weapon against permanent deafness is to have a clean and powerful subwoofer and run it hotter (louder) than your main speakers. This maintains the impact and power of bass guitar where a lot of the musical energy resides. A great subwoofer also makes drum hits so fierce you can flinch along to the beat. You just sit there grinning like an ape every time there's a nice drum hit. Well I do. ;D With your subwoofer set up properly your average listening levels can drop to a much safer level but you still enjoy your rock music. Add 6-8 extra dB(C) over your speakers and you can listen to rock music all day at 75dB(A). Use the C-weighting setting on your SPL meter to set the subwoofer and speaker relative levels. Classical music is mostly fairly quiet with only occasional noisy bits. So is not so damaging to your hearing. (Unless you are actually sitting in the orchestra) I bet you didn't know that the Google Chrome browser spelling checker doesn't recognise Google, Metallica and subwoofer? What is the world coming to?
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Post by chrisbee on Sept 9, 2008 3:06:19 GMT -7
In the interests of research I have just listened to "Telegraph Road" on CD. I only have the awful Ludwig digitally remastered 1996 version on Mercury records.
Towards the end of the final instrumental section I just hit 85dB(A-Slow) once at the listening position. Average level was 80-83dB(A) during the final instrumental. Bass and drums were pounding along quite nicely but I felt this overall level was just a little too loud for comfort. Particularly given the dreadful, artificially-enhanced sound quality of this CD.
Though detailed and dynamic I think this is a very poor CD with regards to sound quality. With far too much HF emphasis designed to put extra air around the instruments. Very coloured and monotonous, monotonic bass drum as if churned out by a machine. No hiss though. I could never listen to this CD as background music as the tinkly and jangly sound is so irritating.
It sounds better on my DVDP through the Yamaha processor. Shame this track wasn't on the DVD for comparison. I must try to find my original Vinyl copy to have a listen. I have always been a great fan of Dire Straits.
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Post by ThomasW on Sept 9, 2008 8:32:23 GMT -7
Oops my bad it's "Private Investigations" that's used for demo. An interesting version of "Private Investigations" is on the "Bring on the Night" concert CD/DVD. Mark Knopfler has a relatively weak voice, as a result it's always processed whether on a recording or in concert... I've heard him in concert several times. He plays the amazing Red Rocks amphitheater (perhaps the world finest concert venue) every couple years. My 'gloat' is I live 30 min from Red Rocks...
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Post by chrisbee on Sept 9, 2008 14:57:57 GMT -7
That's a stunning venue, Thomas! I envy you. I saw all the great names of the 60s at a local dance hall but Dire Straits were just a bit after my time for live gigs. "Brothers in Arms" was my favourite album. I like his clever lyrics a lot. He has a remarkable way with words and a very broad knowledge of our world. One of the few artists who could do protest songs without sounding like early Dylan. Some don't like his fluid guitar playing but I rate him very highly for expressing pure emotion without getting carried away and showing off. Listening to him playing on vinyl always sent shivers down my spine. Not nearly as keen on the CD versions of Dire Straits LPs though. His solo albums and film music seem to work well on CD. I'll shut up now and let Monroe get back into his thread. ;D
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Post by monroebobo on Sept 9, 2008 22:06:01 GMT -7
Hmmm the hiss tihng must be related to the rather cheap DVD CD player or the age of the CD. Ive had the CDs forever. I can take Dave Mathews CD and not hear any hiss at all. Jackson Browne( also a very old CD) also seems to have a lot of hiss. when the music is playing it is masked nearly completely. When I hooked my EP2500 to my mains for the first time I loaded a CD and paused it. Then i turned the gains all the way up on the amp and the volume to max on my reciever and had very very little hiss. At first I thought there was none. Im gonna toy around tomorrow with other recording to figure out what may be causing it. I figure your saying the DEQ will effect the sound in a negative way. I was trying to find a way to get more control over my room acoustics and also apply some sort of house curve to help make my listening experience more enjoyable. Granted I could easily be wrong. My thinking was direct was the purest form of signal achievable. If I placed the DEQ in there it would be the only one piece of equipment that would alter the signal. Since I have more control over the DEQ than any other equipment I have, it seemed to make sense. Then again I dont really understand the technical aspects of how all the equipment relate and work together. I really need to find a book at Barnes and Nobles that will give me a good start on the more technical aspects of home audio equipment. I have played with EQs in cars before and the distortion and qualty was poor and the result really turned me off to them.. Is there a better way to achieve my goal of getting more control over the frequency Kind of like an EQ and would but give me better results? Should I ditch the Direct mode altogether ? I would say my listening levels tend to be pretty tame. I dont have a SPL meter now. But the DEQ I ordered has one and I planned on seeing just what DB levels I listen at. In a general sense I would say when listening alone, it would be difficult but not impossible to carry a conversation with some in the room from a few feet apart. Although, my wife has said many times in the past that alcohol effects the volume control on the remote, it only drinks a couple a times a month. It doesnt always get played when its drinking either. ________________________________________________ Crisbee Said " A great subwoofer also makes drum hits so fierce you can flinch along to the beat. You just sit there grinning like an ape every time there's a nice drum hit. Well I do" ________________________________________________ I like the sound of that. Im really hoping to get ace kicking bootm end without the volume turned up so loud and without the boominess. The Got two emails today. The AE 15s are on the way. As is the DEQ. Gonna go get some plywood tomorrow and maybe ,with some luck, begin to build the manifold. Oh yeh. If it makes you feel any better, I dont reconize " Spell Check" very often. Thanks Monroe
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Post by jimcant on Sept 9, 2008 23:08:06 GMT -7
Chrisbee,
No hijack of this thread is intended, but I think the issue of listening levels with different media should be made more prominent somewhere on this site.
I value my hearing greatly and think that at 52 it is in pretty good shape, mainly through wearing appropriate protection when using machinery.
I do exactly as you have suggested with respect to running the sub hotter than the mains so that I do not have excessive levels of higher frequency but plenty of grunt in the bottom end.
Please excuse the interruption monroebobo.
Cheers, Jim.
PS. Very good explanation and suggestion on use of SPL meter. I too will do that, so I can still enjoy music into my old age!
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Post by monroebobo on Sept 10, 2008 17:36:25 GMT -7
I tried a series of different CDs today and found that some older recordings seem to have hiss in my system. Dire Straits "Telegraph Road, Jackson Brownes " Running On Empty" entire CD, Jouneys "Captured", Some Black Sabbath CDs as well. While Eric Capton "Unplugged", Dave Matthews, Sarah Mclaughlin, Kenny Chesney are all clean as a whistle. It must be the recording or the coping of the CDs from the early days I guess. My guess is just that a guess.
Over at the Audiogon Forums there are a few lengthy threads concerning the DEQ. Some believe that its the best thing since sliced bread, others hated it after using it for a while and everything in between. Some of the guys using it have some equipment that cost many times mine. Since Guitar C. has already ship it I guess Ill try it out. Any ideas on the best way to incorparate it into my system. Will be appreciated. Thanks Monroe
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Post by ThomasW on Sept 11, 2008 13:38:04 GMT -7
Any ideas on the best way to incorparate it into my system. It can be put in a tape loop and impact all the frequencies, or it can be wired to the sub out. Your choice...
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Post by monroebobo on Sept 11, 2008 16:37:39 GMT -7
Thanks Thomas Im going to give it a try on the mains and see what happens. Guitar Center has a 30 day policy. worst case scenerio they will be seeing it again. Thanks Monroe
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