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Post by JeremyG on Feb 2, 2009 12:42:54 GMT -7
Hey, all. I wanted to see what people here are doing/thinking about the Blu-ray LFE -10db issue IB owners like me who are using analog outputs of a player plugged into a pre/pro have run into. I've been using a Marantz SR7001 for my processor work, and it has been flawless. My wife bought a Sony BDP-S550 for me for Christmas (I know, she rocks) and I've since come upon this issue. I've read as much as I could over at AVS, but I wanted to see if anybody here has had the issue. I have no bass management with the Sony, and the Marantz seems to only control SW level in the 7.1 channel mode. It would be a shame to not utilze the IB to its best when using the new audio codecs.
Sorry for the thread that really doesn't pertain to IB, but here I can trust straight talk and good ideas.
Thanks,
Jeremy
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Post by ThomasW on Feb 2, 2009 23:57:05 GMT -7
What happens if you run a digital feed to the Marantz, select the 7.1 mode and turn off the speakers you aren't using?
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Post by JeremyG on Feb 3, 2009 19:54:54 GMT -7
When I select the 7.1 mode on the Marantz, it bypasses the DSP and I can only control the levels on the analog inputs/outputs. When I select HDMI, I believe the Marantz processes the bitstream as DTS or Dolby Digital when I select the applicable track on the Blu-ray. The Marantz doesn't decode the HD audio tracks (it's too old). When the Marantz is doing the work the LFE seems fine, only in DTS and DD. When the Sony is processing the tracks in HD audio mode and outputting analog to the Marantz, the LFE/sub level is definitely lower. The other channels sound really great, so it seems it's just the LFE/sub output that's low when the Sony is decoding HD and outputting analog to the Marantz.
For what it's worth, I've ran this by a friend of mine by the name of Mike Keith who knows much more about these things than I do, and he said it seems like the same thing that happened to him when he bought an SACD player. He ended up getting an Outlaw ICBM to adjust the LFE/sub channel when plugged in via analog. I've experimented by boosting the sub out from the Marantz, louder, but it didn't sound right.
My set up is the Sony Blu-ray player, an AppleTV, the Marantz, a BFD, then a Crown amp, none of which have a lot of boost for the sub channel. All speakers are set to small in the Sony and the Marantz.
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ken
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Post by ken on Feb 3, 2009 20:25:17 GMT -7
can you back off the spl levels of your speakers in the sony ? l read somewhere that this is a way to even things out better.......dunno as l dont own a bd player atm but intend to get one with analogs out .....l dont want to get rid of my sony tada9000es amp, so l'll be doing the same as you are with the marantz
ken
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Post by JeremyG on Feb 3, 2009 21:18:58 GMT -7
I have level control on the Sony and the Marantz. I've adjusted both to test, but either way the LFE/sub doesn't sound like I think it should. The DTS decoding of some of my movies and concerts sounds much more controlled and detailed than the HD tracks. To me that shouldn't be so. I'm not looking for visceral impact (I've only a pair of Avalanche 12's for crying out loud), but the SQ should be at least the same with an identical level, right?
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Post by ThomasW on Feb 3, 2009 21:59:13 GMT -7
but the SQ should be at least the same with an identical level, right? I tend to fine tune the output levels of all the speakers when going from one movie to another. As a result I don't expect to keep the same levels when changing formats. |
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Post by JeremyG on Feb 3, 2009 22:33:32 GMT -7
I typically don't watch movies at full volume, since 90% of the time the kids are in bed. The only time I crank anything up (relatively) is with music, and I've got that as dialed in as I can. I tried the HD tracks turned up just to see what the hubbub was about. I'll admit I'm too lazy to adjust the individual levels for each record or movie. I've got over 300 albums (over 3000 songs) instantly available on hard drive so when I hit "Random" I'd be busier than a one-legged man in a butt kicking contest. I think I may have found my answer: www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147The Cliff Notes version seems to be to just adjust speaker distance in the player and the sub level on my Marantz. I've already tried that, but the thread says boost 10-15dB. I only attempted 5dB or so. So I turn up another 5dB and listen. Will this affect (effect?) my BFD input settings? Maybe. If that's the case, I assume that I will need to construct a "Movie" preset on the BFD and turn down the filter levels by a healthy amount. Or since the analog output of the Blu-ray player is 10dB down and I boost it in the Marantz then the BFD should see a approximate equal voltage relative to a Marantz decoded track. Right? I'm sure glad you guys are smarter than me. |
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Post by JeremyG on Mar 3, 2009 19:48:35 GMT -7
Just an update-if anyone cares... Turning up the subwoofer output while listening to Blu-ray player decoded tracks makes the LFE louder, but I'm still A/B-ing between DTS/DD and the HD tracks to check. It seems like the LFE is okay, but other low end items(like a bass guitar, low voices or similar effects in the low mid/high bass range) get boomy with the HD tracks. Steven Wilson's "Insurgentes" decoded DTS by the Blu-ray player sounds bloated, but by my Marantz tight and solid. I think the analog input to the Marantz may bypass the internal crossover as well. I need to find a good Blu-ray concert or audio mix of an album to have an easier time... Thomas... I've been a disciple since '05 before this forum existed in its present form, so I decided to try out your approach at changing levels for different formats and albums/movies within the format. You were right, again. I've been tweeking speaker levels and even trying out different curve presets in the BFD for weeks now. I didn't think I could wring out better sound out of my setup, but I can maximize it for each thing I listen to. Do other non-IB sub owners worry this much over the low end? Could they tell? Thomas, thank you once again.  |
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ken
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Post by ken on Mar 3, 2009 21:42:57 GMT -7
do you have copies of the same stuff in both bd and standard dvd , it would be interesting to throw them in the sony bd player to compare lfe etc ..........if dts is better that would be a disappointing result hey, though there are a few variables as you've mentioned that will hamper a shootout , such as c/over p etc................keep at it mate, l'm interested to see how you go as l'm going to be doing the same later on when l can afford a bd player
cheers ken
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Post by JeremyG on Mar 4, 2009 18:21:55 GMT -7
All the Blu-ray discs I've played so far have the HD tracks and standard DTS/DD tracks encoded as well. A/B-ing for me is having to change the output of the Sony Blu-ray player from analog to HDMI, and then in the Marantz from analog input to HDMI. Takes about 20 seconds. That's decoding only DTS/DD with each. Checking HD to DTS/DD I've only been using the Sony to decode. I can adjust the levels when listening to audio tracks mixed 5.1 so the Sony and the Marantz have similar levels; I think the only difference is the EQ and crossover in the Marantz is defeated in analog input mode. That makes the overall SQ better using the Marantz. I have a BFD in the chain so the IB is smooth regardless, but plays higher due to the crossoverlessness (Hey, I may have just coined a new word).
As far as HD and DTS/DD tracks, they sound pretty similar in the low end. But that's part of my issue. Listening to the other channels I can discern a little difference, but I'm probably limited by my speakers. It's not as noticable as going from CD/hard drive tracks to DTS/DD tracks (I listen in lossless formats with the hard drive). Seems like I can just use the DTS/DD bitstream output and decode via the Marantz and get away with it. You guys with the bigger more dynamic theaters will more than likely be able to tell the difference. The picture is definitely better, and I only have a 46" LCD.
In any event the IB still works like a champ. Boosting the sub out 10db brings the explosions back in a fury. I guess I'll just change levels and setups depending on what I'm listening to for best results, just like Thomas said. Possibly use some filters in the BFD to act as a crossover. I feel like I'm trying out different octane fuels in a Corvette during my daily drive trying to get the best performance. The IB chugs along and makes fun of me for my foolishness.
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Post by JeremyG on Mar 8, 2009 19:55:37 GMT -7
I tried out "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" yesterday. The DD HD track sounded pretty good, and the DD version paralleled the HD track pretty close. When the Sony Blu-ray player was decoding, Harrison Ford's voice came partially through the sub, maybe due to the Blu-ray player speaker setup as "Small" or the Marantz internal crossover defeat. This issue wasn't as apparent when the Marantz was decoding the DD bitstream. I'm going to adjust the BFD to see if I can use it as a pseudo-crossover to try attenuating the vocals through the sub. I may sound silly, but it was distracting having vocals coming through the sub. Of course it may just be in the overall track mix. The nuclear explosion in the beginning of the movie completely rocked the house. Boosting the sub out 10dB out of the Sony with the HD tracks brought the LFE back. Also, adjusting the levels with the HD track made the overall experience more visceral than the standard DD track. The HD track can definitely be played at a higher volume than the standard DD track before I can notice distortion. Also, the HD LFE appears to go even lower than the standard DTS/DD. If you can, check out the fancy HD THX logo that plays before the movie. There was about a 5 second spot where I couldn't hear anything, but the house just shook. Things fell of the wall in an adjoining room opposite the IB. Watch those sub levels.  Thomas, if this thread is off topic please tell me. I just want to write down what I'm going through in case someone else is experiencing the same. |
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ken
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Post by ken on Mar 30, 2009 11:30:22 GMT -7
Sounds like your going alright there jeremy in regards to lfe........l just bought my first bdp , a pioneer bdp 51fd , so l'm in the same boat asyou , running analogue outs etc.
l have'nt tried any music yet but the lfe seems to be working ok so far.....just had to crank up the gain on my ep2500( still waiting on a firmware upgrade to get 7.1 hd ma )
cheers ken
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Post by JeremyG on Apr 1, 2009 19:29:34 GMT -7
Ken,
I've been watching movies and adjusting levels every weekend for the past month. I've actually turned the sub down in the Marantz a little from the initial 10 dB boost. I think I'm at 6 dB up. I didn't adjust any levels on my sub amp (a Crown XLS 602), and I've tweeked my BFD, but I've put it back to the way it was. It seems like the HD tracks go much lower in frequency/have better LFE resolution, and I've been a little worried about over excursion of the IB. I usually play a certain chapter a few times and adjust the sub level in the Marantz on the fly. So basically I have my Marantz set up for a 6 dB boost on the analog input side when playing Blu-rays with HD tracks (Sony player decoding), and when I put in a DVD I change the Blu-ray player to bitstream the DTS/DD tracks for the Marantz to decode.
I've read on other forums that a firmware upgrade for my Marantz is a debacle, so I'm hoping that I can get by with what I have. Hope you have better luck.
Have fun.
Jeremy
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ken
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Post by ken on Apr 1, 2009 22:57:13 GMT -7
Yeah my gut feeling was the bd hd deeper/cleaner lfe too.........could be just my imagination, it just seems odd both of us have the same opinion in that regard  cheers ken |
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Post by JeremyG on Apr 3, 2009 20:08:31 GMT -7
I'm waiting on someone to do some plots of the HD tracks to see for sure. I'm sure other people with IB's have Blu-ray players, I just haven't heard what they think. The way the LFE sounds to me, some people with standard (read box) subs may not be able to discern the subtlety. I believe I can tell the difference. Not volume, only deepness. It makes the IB seem more present. Even my wife can tell a difference, and that, my friend, is huge.
My wife just gave birth to kid #2 yesterday, so my testing is on hold for a while. That gives me time to get one or two concert Blu-rays on the way for later.
Jeremy
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Post by JeremyG on Apr 5, 2009 16:54:21 GMT -7
I picked up "David Gilmore: Live At The Royal Albert Hall" on Blu-ray today. Between the Dolby Digital HD track decoded by the player and the standard Dolby Digital decoded by the Marantz, the HD audio is a hands down winner. Maybe it's the mix? The sub integrates better into the rest of the speakers, and the soundstage is about twice as big and deep as opposed to the Dolby Digital version. I've adjusted the sub down just a hair in the Marantz, and it's about as perfect as I can get with what I have. It also again seems that the HD bass in fact has a lower frequency resolution than the standard track. I've been A/B'ing the tracks with the volume set on the Marantz and watched the BFD level meters. The meters are consistent between the two, but the HD tracks seem to have more punch and depth. I don't know why. Maybe Thomas or other smart guys can decipher? You guys with better front speakers and bigger IB's would get a kick out of this disc.  Jeremy Oh, and the new kid went right to sleep when I started it up. Probably liked it. My daughter used to be put to sleep with music from Porcupine Tree. |
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ken
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Post by ken on Apr 5, 2009 20:24:22 GMT -7
Congratulations on the new baby mate , nice if the ib doesn't upset the family hey Yeah we can't get Dave Gilmore on bd here yet , only by importing from uk or usa.....plenty of standard dvd copies, which l find a bit odd as its been in store here awhile , very frustrating for people wanting to adopt new technologies ken |
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Post by JeremyG on Apr 10, 2009 8:46:45 GMT -7
I've been thinking about what Thomas said at the beginning of this thread about digital feeds from the Blu-ray player to the AVR. Today I looked through the minutia of all my owner's manuals and came upon the ability to select the Blu-ray player to decode the HD tracks and send them multi-channel PCM via HDMI to my Marantz. This is not using the analog outputs of the player. In this mode it appears that I have bass management control and overall EQ control in the Marantz, and it appears so far that the LFE issue is resolved.
So maybe if you have a processor capable of multi-channel PCM via HDMI input, then the question of bass management in the Blu-ray player is no longer needed.
Overall integration with the mains and IB is much better. I now believe that my IB could integrate seamlessly acoustically with my coffee grinder.
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ken
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Post by ken on Apr 10, 2009 15:11:23 GMT -7
Hi jeremy , thats good mate you can process your signal, l can't
as my sony tada90000es is'nt hdmi equipped thats why l brought the pioneer for it's nice dacs for the analogue outs .......hopefully l'll get some speaker management with the new firmware thats due soon as well .
l really like my amp and have no option other than this or get rid of it, and to replace it would cost a lot to get somthing as good as it
cheers ken
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Post by chrisbee on Apr 12, 2009 1:06:24 GMT -7
This thread prompted me to have a look at my BDLX70a menus. It seems I have a choice of dynamic range. Least dynamic range is the default. After trying the other settings I can see why. It was tiring to listen to increased dynamic range.
I hope the digital out options of BDPs offer improved performance over analogue stereo out. After hours of listening carefully to the same track using the LX70a and my old Marantz CD63SE I couldn't tell them apart. Though I could easily tell the different issues of the same track apart. As could my wife completely without prompting. She has very good hearing and thought both disk players were broken because they sounded so distorted compared with vinyl. ;D
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