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Post by evilskillit on Mar 29, 2011 7:47:57 GMT -7
Fi Car Audio has dropped the IB3 and is bringing it back under the brand name Blueprint Drivers (hopefully, but when?). Acoustic Elegance seems to have currently scrapped the IB15. Exodus Audio discontinued their IB15 last year. Even the option I consider to probably be the best clutch in this situation The Mach 5 Aduio IXL18.2.2 is out of stock. It seems like currently the options are all now very expensive (EG the Exodus Audio Maelstrom for about $500 each or the like) or somewhat underhwelming.
I've got a friend who is currently finishing up the living room theater in his new house and I've convinced him to switch from the ported sub we built a few years ago to an IB setup, but every driver that I spent a whole night selling to him is currently not around. So do you go with something like 4 Dayton Audio Reference 15" subs. Fairly affordable at about $600 for the set but not nearly as much displacement as a lot of the subs people are currently running. Or just wait? I won't be able to get him to sink more than $1500 into the whole deal including a Behringer EP2000 so $500 subs are out of the question for the time being. So what suggestions does everybody have? I can probably get him to hold on for a few weeks to a month and hopefully the Blueprint Drivers thing takes off, but I don't think you can really count on that 100% if you've already decided to start moving forward on a project.
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Post by ThomasW on Mar 29, 2011 15:51:11 GMT -7
I recommend waiting...
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Post by topdown on Mar 29, 2011 17:21:00 GMT -7
Can you elaborate on how long we will need to wait and/or what we are waiting for? I'd hate to pass on something decent that is available now and find out your recommendation is priced beyond my budget.
If something really good is coming that is <$150 then please let us know. Otherwise I am inclined to take my chances on some Daytons or Eminence MFW15's.
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Post by ThomasW on Mar 29, 2011 21:55:06 GMT -7
Can you elaborate on how long we will need to wait and/or what we are waiting for? Until suitable drivers are available from Fi, AE or Mach 5 Go for it if those are what you want. Thing is there will be 18"s available that are under $300 have have as much or more displacement as pair those 15"s
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Post by silentj20 on Apr 15, 2011 11:16:18 GMT -7
Acoustic Elegance seems to have currently scrapped the IB15. What? Say it ain't so! I was just modeling their driver and have hopes of using them. Guess I'll wait, too...
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Post by watersedge on Apr 20, 2011 8:37:37 GMT -7
Well...I just got an email from Nick last night. It doesn't look like the IB3 series is forthcoming anytime soon. He said they were ready to roll with neodymium magnets, but have had to change course due to a slam in the cost of neodymium. So, they're going to have to redesign/retool for ferrite. He closed with, "The IB3 series will be transferring over to our home theater brand blueprint drivers when it is available. We just do not have the materials or the time to launch the brand right now."
So...there is no timeline for the IB3 series to reopen under Blueprint.
With that said, AE is no longer producing IB, nor Exodus, it appears that Mach5Audio is the only option, and they're out of stock. So...instead of waiting indefinitely for something that may never come...I've decided to pull the trigger and proceed with my build.
Anyone have any advice or suggestions...or is Dayton/Eminence the way to go?
Just trying to put all current options I can on the table so I can select the one for me.
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 20, 2011 9:56:03 GMT -7
I was afraid this was going to happen.....
Options for 'inexpensive' drivers are .......
1) Does JohnJ have any AV15"s (or drivers like them) available?
2) For those with modest needs the PE RSS-390HF is a very good driver, just has limited Xmax
3) Dayton Audio TIT400C 15" is another option has more Xmax than the RSS390
4) The old Dayton IB385 isn't a bad driver, it's just dated technology. They're made by Eminence
Might look around to see what's available from the car audio guys. That's how we found Sound Splinter (RIP).........
For those with fatter wallets.
1) look at the Fi .Q15/18"s
I'll look around for other options......
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Post by paul08 on Apr 20, 2011 12:46:00 GMT -7
How about the TC Sounds LMS-R 15" DVC? To bad it cost big bucks
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Ile
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Post by Ile on Apr 21, 2011 1:37:34 GMT -7
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tomw
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Post by tomw on Apr 21, 2011 7:06:38 GMT -7
Did not know Sound Splinter was gone. I have 2 RLP 15s that I bought years ago when I first found this site. As I learned more plan was changed to FI IB3 18s x 4. The 15s are for sale if anyone need a pair. Cheers Tomw
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Post by aespeakers on Apr 21, 2011 9:26:18 GMT -7
Hi ThomasW, hope things are well with you. As AE was mentioned here someone notified me of the thread and figured I'd stop in quickly. I made the decision in January to stop selling the IB15's in their current manner. Over the past 3-4 years I sold probably around 1500 IB15's. They were really the bread and butter of what I was doing here. I have to definitely thank the Cult forum for many of those sales.
The IB15 was a driver I designed specifically to get the most output with least input power and with the lowest distortion. It was a driver that was designed to fill a need and sell quantity, but not necessarily make huge profit. For IB use, the desired higher Q allowed me to keep the motor size down to reduce cost compared to the standard TD woofers. The soft suspension made the driver very efficient where it would have a natural F3 around 16hz. That soft suspension does limit the amount of travel that the driver can have without issues of the VC rubbing though. This is why the IB15's had an 18mm Xmax. They were also built off other parts that were fully in stock at most times. The smaller Xmax also meant smaller surrounds and the Sd was significantly larger than many other woofers with large roll surrounds. Going to more than 18mm Xmax would require expensive cone and spider tooling and also require stiffer suspension. This would sacrifice one of the big benefits, which is the low end efficiency. In terms of power requirements, distortion, and cost, it was much more practical from to just use more drivers than to try to make a single driver move much more air.
The difficulty for me here began when there were issues with other things. The AV part supply issues put me in a horrible position for several years really. Vendors took nearly $50,000 from me without delivering anything. The legal system was absolutely no help. I ended up having difficulty with parts supply due to cash flow issues, specifically buying the quantity of parts from china that were required as a minimum order. This would specifically be frames and raw steel parts.
The cost per unit was also an issue. To build an IB15 is slightly more work than building a TD15 due to one extra step required. However, because of the price point the IB market dictated, I would make only 1/4 the money off building the IB15 even though it took longer to build. In reality if the IB15's fit in with the rest of the pricing schedule, they should have been about $249 all along. There is a lot of cost to hand building drivers myself. Steel is all finish machined by hand in my machine shop. Copper sleeves are applied by hand and trimmed. Parts are plated in Milwaukee. Cones, VC, spiders, dustcaps, adhesives, edge gaskets, etc are all US sourced. All of this has cost to it. The guarantee that I am personally building every driver also should add some value to the woofers. Now that I am working alone and doing ALL of this work myself, the cost just has to go up. For me to run a lathe and turn T-yokes all day I can't be working at a rate of only $10 per hour and expect to survive. I need to make enough to cover all the utilities to keep the shop open before I even take home a dime.
My goal originally was to stay true with the TD woofers and make the best sounding IB driver available. Keep in mind I have an OEM customer using the same essential driver(cone, surround, VC, spider, etc) with next size up motor in a $100k retail pair of speakers. We've put these drivers in multiple high end recording studios. The goal wasn't just to move air, but to be accurate as well.
People however often didn't look at the advantages of the driver such as the low inductance, low distortion, the low Fs, ideal Q, the low power requirements to use the full excursion, etc. They would compare to other drivers with higher Xmax that would require 10x the power to get the same levels at 16hz and have magnitudes more distortion. They made the decision that those other drives were better based only on the price per L of displacement being 5% lower. Most just wanted to move air, but didn't care about how cleanly it was done, how much power was required, or how much EQ they needed to flatten the response.
When I raised the pricing from $125 to $149 and stopped doing them at 4 for $100, people were angry! I got hate emails about how i was trying to run some bait and switch campaign and rip people off. People said there was no way the cost could have gone up that much and it wasn't fair that I bumped the pricing so high. In reality my pricing on parts alone doubled over the course of 4 years. The retail though went up 19% over that same period. That is less than 5% per year, while inflation is about 7% per year. Yet people felt I had no right to raise the price. In reality I should have doubled the retail pricing on the driver, but didn't think the market would accept it so I only made a small increase.
That all said, I could easily make IB15's again. I however need to make money to survive doing so. At a retail of $199 and 4pc pricing of $175 I could easily start doing more IB15's almost immediately. I don't know however, if the market would have any interest in them at this pricing based on the past experiences. I am almost caught up on current demands. I could begin to have drivers shipping again in 4-6 weeks if demand was there for them. Let me know what people think.
John
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Post by paul08 on Apr 21, 2011 10:49:14 GMT -7
I'am in for ten of them ;D
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 21, 2011 11:42:48 GMT -7
That all said, I could easily make IB15's again. I however need to make money to survive doing so. At a retail of $199 and 4pc pricing of $175 I could easily start doing more IB15's almost immediately. I think this is a good idea. Sorry to hear you were hassled by people not comprehending the pricing changes. Some people don't understand economics ...... With rare exception the bulk of the more modestly priced drivers (and some higher priced ones) become paperweights if the driver is 'blown' or otherwise damaged. When people buy from the custom builder like JohnJ, they've made a long term 'investment' since reconing services are available.
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jcnes
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Post by jcnes on Apr 21, 2011 14:47:52 GMT -7
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Post by mtbdudex on Apr 21, 2011 16:25:55 GMT -7
Ae John, Fwiw, I'm hosting a HT Meet 5/14, www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1322007. My IB sub with 4 of your IB15's will be involved in a sub shootout! Good luck with your business, and my place is always open if you have a potential customer in mich area for a demo. Mike
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Post by watersedge on Apr 21, 2011 19:24:27 GMT -7
John,
If you do begin production on the IB15, please let me know. I'd buy 8 immediately.
Given the lack of quality drivers out there right now, I think you'd have no problem picking up where you left off...but at the higher, more reasonable, prices.
Thanks, Jerry
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Post by FOH on Apr 22, 2011 2:23:52 GMT -7
I think it's the ideal time to bring those drivers back into the marketplace. A prospective buyer needs to know what they're getting; John @ae, is extremely knowledgeable and makes some of the finest drivers available in the world. His product line and custom services are second to none IMO.
Good luck as you move forward
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Post by mojave on Apr 22, 2011 8:35:51 GMT -7
If the new drivers have the same parameters as the ones you are currently finishing, I'd purchase some more.
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Post by sport883xlc on Apr 22, 2011 15:48:59 GMT -7
AE John -
I am new to the IB world, and had pretty much settled on wanting 4 (or maybe 8) of your AE IB15s. I was pretty bummed when I found out they were not available any longer. That being said, I run my own business as well, so I relate to your issue with pricing and angry customers. I have attempted to relate the issue to them by asking how they would feel if if they went into work one day and the boss said "material pricing has increased 20% in the last quarter, so to better serve our end users, we are taking the difference out of employee paychecks". Sometimes they understand, sometimes they fire themselves as a customer.
In any event, I have heard many good things about your product, so I hope you find a way to bring it back to the market at a cost that makes it worth your while. Even at the price you mentioned here, it still seems like a great value and would be in the lower end of pricing in this market sector.
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Post by albepositive on Apr 22, 2011 20:04:38 GMT -7
I have been lurking on this site for the past few months increasing my knowledge of this subject matter with plans to build a theater in my basement this summer using an IB system.
It seemed like just as I was discovering this infinite baffle concept the subwoofers being used in the systems displayed on this site and others were either on backorder or just not available any more. And while it appears that almost any driver could be used, it makes things easier when one can use a driver designed specifically for the system you want to build.
After reading John's post, I see a window of opportunity opening here and I want to help build some momentum. I have high interest in the 4 IB15's at $175.00 each deal. Add me to the top of the list.
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