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Post by harleyhualersc02 on May 11, 2013 6:35:37 GMT -7
Hi all, I've been a lurker for some time, finally decided to join. I currently have an IB with 8 15" kicker Comp 15's that i'm looking to upgrade. The kicker IB can be viewed here www.hometheatershack.com/forums/ib-infinite-baffle-subwoofer-build-projects/53976-8-kicker-comp-c15-15-ib-build.htmlI'm looking to upgrade to either 4 Fi car audio IB3 18" or 18 Hifonics BRZ15D4. Yes, that is correct 18 of the Hifonics 15's. I can get them for the same price as 4 of the FI IB3 18's. I modeled both set ups in WinISD and with 1 EP2500 powering either set the Hifonics were 4 db louder 20hz and below. Here are the spec's on the Hifonics BRZ15D4 Nom 4+4 ohm SD 0.08 SQM REVC 7.68 Ohm BL 19.6 Txm VAS 200 Liters CMS 220 uM/N MMS 261 Grams FO/FS 21 Hz QMS 3.5 QES 0.58 QTS 0.5 NO 0.308 % SPL 1w 87 db SPL 2.83v 88 db XMAX 15.5 Xmech 22.5 RMS 600 I think they have a 2.5 voice coil. My question is it worth buying the Hifonics or just stick with the tried and true FI IB3's? Regards, Marcus |
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Post by harleyhualersc02 on May 11, 2013 6:39:10 GMT -7
Oh forgot to add, they will be placed in the attic over my converted 2 car garage man cave/theater room. 20' x 20' x 9.5' H.
I'm love the sound of the Kicker's, just can't find them cheap enough to buy 10 more. lol So i will be selling the kicker's and upgrading to the Hifonics or FI's.
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Post by FOH on May 11, 2013 7:12:26 GMT -7
Welcome,
Although many relegate cheap autosound drivers as un-worthy of a serious diy build, I think that would be a mistake. There are some solid values out there, with adequate performance ... especially when utilized in multiples as in an IB. Point being, there's some decent performance/$ options out there to be found. Some of the aesthetics are garish, but everyone likes different things, who am I to say.
So, first are the T/S parameters accurate? Hard to say, aside from examining user reviews, etc. It would seem many are quite happy with the driver.
If you can get 18, for the price of 4 Fi IB3-18s, and they perform "better" ... move more air/watt .. then it would make sense. But, construction of an 18 driver IB isn't a trivial endeavor, for sure. Clearly, the construction materials alone would be quite more expensive than the quad set of Fi drivers.
If the modeling illustrates the advantage, and the T/S parameters are accurate, and you don't mind the 4x-5x the construction/fabrication effort and expense, then go for it. I'm sure you're aware, but be mindful there's a lot of specmanship, etc, regarding Xmax, Xmech, and Fs, .. all of which would affect modeling. Again, all said the reviews seem positive.
There's distinct advantages to huge numbers of drivers covering the spectrum. Lower compression, lower distortion, more effective impedance coupling to the acoustic space (room lock), lessening the negative influences of the room .. via selective location and spreading of sources.
So, if you pursue this avenue .. what's your plans regarding employing 18 drivers?
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Post by FOH on May 11, 2013 7:27:30 GMT -7
Oh forgot to add, they will be placed in the attic over my converted 2 car garage man cave/theater room. 20' x 20' x 9.5' H. I'm love the sound of the Kicker's, just can't find them cheap enough to buy 10 more. lol So i will be selling the kicker's and upgrading to the Hifonics or FI's. Very cool  It's always refreshing discovering a prospective IB build. Really interested in the additional details, ie., how they'd be implemented,..array, manifold, all one location, multiple locations, etc. Remember, a 20x20x10 room could be quite problematic modally. When dimensions are similar, or multiples of one-another, problems arise. However there's several steps that can be taken to alleviate the problems. In my opinion, you'd be wise to be ready to incorporate as much bass trapping as the room can handle. Being aware of this on the front end of a project is ideal. DIY bass trapping is inexpensive, and adressing the decay/time domain, is the single biggest contributor to "fast, tight, punchy" bass. A room can't be "over-trapped". What mains loudspeakers will you be mating the IB system with? |
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Post by harleyhualersc02 on May 11, 2013 7:56:48 GMT -7
I have absolutely no acoustic treatments as far has bass trapping. But i do plan on DIY bass traps later in my theater build.
If i were to go with the 18 it would be 1 big manifold across my front stage with 9 on either side. Or three small manifolds with 6 in each. Similar to my kicker manifold build which had 4 in each.
I was contemplating the build time and material expenses of the 18 15's and it did make me lean more towards the 4-18's. Plus for the 4-18"s i wouldn't have to cut any more holes in my ceiling. Over all i just like saying i have 18-15's in my attic. lol Really i think the 18-15's will have a better overall sound due to them taking less effort to produce the same amount of spl.
i currently have an 9.2/11.2 set up. 3 Monster M-design SLT-8400's for the front LCR and 8 M-design SLT-3600 for the surrounds. The front 3 8400's are powered by an Monster MPA 3250 and the surrounds are powered by an Onkyo Tx-NR1007. The 8 kickers are powered by an Behringer ep2500. Had 2 Def Tech PF1800 as well, but i only have one now. Selling all my subs to fund my new IB build/upgrade
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Post by ThomasW on May 12, 2013 5:47:51 GMT -7
Something to consider...... not that this happens often but it can occur.
Power amp failure dumps DC into the circuit and takes out all the drivers. If you're using the Fi 18"s they can be reconed for 1/2 the original price. What happens with the Hifonics? Can they be rebuild or just thrown away.
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Post by scubasteve2365 on May 12, 2013 12:06:05 GMT -7
Having recently built a manifold, I personally wouldn't go with any design that featured 18 drivers unless it was required. For a marginal SPL bump. No way. There may be some fringe benefits, but that's a lot of hole cutting. That's a lot of driver mounting. It's just a lot more work/trouble and risk for no pay off.
That's just my opinion.
I just put 2 Fi 18s in my theater 17.75' x 14.5' x 8' and it's plenty for output with enough headroom for some EQ and listening at reference flat.
I'm receiving an additional 2 drivers this Wednesday. 4 should be overkill for my room, and I'm only going with them because I'm hoping it'll improve response a little bit and give me some more ear grinning potential when the wife/kids are gone. You're room is a good size room almost double mine in cubic footage, if you consider the Fi drivers you might want to consider at least building for 6-8.
If you go with the other drivers and go with 18, to have the same amount of upgrade ability, you would have to build manifolds for how many drivers? 30? I'd definitely consider what it will take to get more output should you need it for a room that size.
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Post by harleyhualersc02 on May 12, 2013 18:58:14 GMT -7
Something to consider...... not that this happens often but it can occur. Power amp failure dumps DC into the circuit and takes out all the drivers. If you're using the Fi 18"s they can be reconed for 1/2 the original price. What happens with the Hifonics? Can they be rebuild or just thrown away. Wow never crossed my mind if anything happened to the hifonics and having to replace them. That is definitely steering me more towards the FI's. |
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Post by harleyhualersc02 on May 12, 2013 19:13:13 GMT -7
Having recently built a manifold, I personally wouldn't go with any design that featured 18 drivers unless it was required. For a marginal SPL bump. No way. There may be some fringe benefits, but that's a lot of hole cutting. That's a lot of driver mounting. It's just a lot more work/trouble and risk for no pay off. That's just my opinion. I just put 2 Fi 18s in my theater 17.75' x 14.5' x 8' and it's plenty for output with enough headroom for some EQ and listening at reference flat. I'm receiving an additional 2 drivers this Wednesday. 4 should be overkill for my room, and I'm only going with them because I'm hoping it'll improve response a little bit and give me some more ear grinning potential when the wife/kids are gone. You're room is a good size room almost double mine in cubic footage, if you consider the Fi drivers you might want to consider at least building for 6-8. If you go with the other drivers and go with 18, to have the same amount of upgrade ability, you would have to build manifolds for how many drivers? 30? I'd definitely consider what it will take to get more output should you need it for a room that size. Yea, i understand what your saying. You guys are providing some awesome input/insight on this. Glad i finally decided to start posting prior to buying the hifonics. If i were able to find the kicker subs i already have for around $70 each i would just buy 8-10 more of those and be done with it. Instead of going through the hassle of pulling the kickers out reselling them. All i have to do now is stop buying other crap so i can save up the money to get the FI's. lol |
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Post by harleyhualersc02 on May 12, 2013 19:27:49 GMT -7
Seating area, about 10-13 ft from IB Attachments:
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Post by harleyhualersc02 on May 12, 2013 19:32:41 GMT -7
One IB opening with 4 kickers comp 15's in a manifold Attachments:
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Post by harleyhualersc02 on May 12, 2013 19:34:25 GMT -7
Old School Entertainment center/Wall Unit Attachments:
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Post by harleyhualersc02 on May 12, 2013 19:35:22 GMT -7
More wall unit Attachments:
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Post by FOH on May 13, 2013 6:08:21 GMT -7
I just put 2 Fi 18s in my theater 17.75' x 14.5' x 8' and it's plenty for output with enough headroom for some EQ and listening at reference flat. I'm receiving an additional 2 drivers this Wednesday. 4 should be overkill for my room, and I'm only going with them because I'm hoping it'll improve response a little bit and give me some more ear grinning potential when the wife/kids are gone. You're room is a good size room almost double mine in cubic footage, if you consider the Fi drivers you might want to consider at least building for 6-8. Depending how demandingly they're mixed, BluRay soundtracks can require up to around 123dB-126dB at the listening position, from a bass managed subwoofer system. My IB, a quad set of Fi-IB3-18s, can cleanly hit sustained SPLs of ~125dB@1m@20Hz. Again, that's measured, at 1m. That's a Behringer EP4000, with a 20hz sine wave, with 225w/driver, no high pass filtering. I've found that employing any more power than that and they'll hard bottom without a HP with the deep infra effects accompanying some films. Anyway, that 125dB is at one meter, let alone at my LP 12 feet away, which drops down around 10dB. So, ref level can require 123dB-126dB at the listening position, and that's both theoretical, and in use. For example, Skyfall, The Dark Knight Rises, StarTrek, Flight of the Phoenix, and others, all are mixed to hit 126dB total bass managed+LFE, and full bandwidth ref level at the LP, is an extraordinary requirement. The spec is down to 3hz, which just isn't going to happen at the LP, at those levels. That said, the mix may not contain (and likely doesn't) energy in those octaves, but some do. When you do the math, those are are some truly extraordinary numbers to attain. When the term "reference level" at the LP is stated, consider how tough that really is. My IB is 4 IB3-18s, and upon firing it up I was blown away with the characteristic clean LF. Over a short period of time, it became clear, I either needed to high-pass, and use more power, or employ more drivers/more capability. Initially I was to build two 4 driver manifolds, but circumstances with my health precluded that ... I could barely finish the first one (actually it's not finished yet, but is operational). My room is 25'x13'x8',.. 2600 cubes. I hope all this additional perspective helps in some way. |
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Post by scubasteve2365 on May 13, 2013 7:30:23 GMT -7
I just put 2 Fi 18s in my theater 17.75' x 14.5' x 8' and it's plenty for output with enough headroom for some EQ and listening at reference flat. I'm receiving an additional 2 drivers this Wednesday. 4 should be overkill for my room, and I'm only going with them because I'm hoping it'll improve response a little bit and give me some more ear grinning potential when the wife/kids are gone. You're room is a good size room almost double mine in cubic footage, if you consider the Fi drivers you might want to consider at least building for 6-8. Depending how demandingly they're mixed, BluRay soundtracks can require up to around 123dB-126dB at the listening position, from a bass managed subwoofer system. My IB, a quad set of Fi-IB3-18s, can cleanly hit sustained SPLs of ~125dB@1m@20Hz. Again, that's measured, at 1m. That's a Behringer EP4000, with a 20hz sine wave, with 225w/driver, no high pass filtering. I've found that employing any more power than that and they'll hard bottom without a HP with the deep infra effects accompanying some films. Anyway, that 125dB is at one meter, let alone at my LP 12 feet away, which drops down around 10dB. So, ref level can require 123dB-126dB at the listening position, and that's both theoretical, and in use. For example, Skyfall, The Dark Knight Rises, StarTrek, Flight of the Phoenix, and others, all are mixed to hit 126dB total bass managed+LFE, and full bandwidth ref level at the LP, is an extraordinary requirement. The spec is down to 3hz, which just isn't going to happen at the LP, at those levels. That said, the mix may not contain (and likely doesn't) energy in those octaves, but some do. When you do the math, those are are some truly extraordinary numbers to attain. When the term "reference level" at the LP is stated, consider how tough that really is. My IB is 4 IB3-18s, and upon firing it up I was blown away with the characteristic clean LF. Over a short period of time, it became clear, I either needed to high-pass, and use more power, or employ more drivers/more capability. Initially I was to build two 4 driver manifolds, but circumstances with my health precluded that ... I could barely finish the first one (actually it's not finished yet, but is operational). My room is 25'x13'x8',.. 2600 cubes. I hope all this additional perspective helps in some way. Interesting. I thought the specs indicated that there were peaks of 105db on the mains and 115db on the LFE channel for reference. It's moot for me, I cannot listen at reference levels in my house with or without LFE, it's just too loud. I let my 3 year old watch Monster's Inc yesterday at 10 under reference and with a 3db boost on the LFE. I was one floor up doing some menial mother's day slave labor and at times I thought the hardwood floors were going to come apart. I could not image 126db peaks anywhere in the LFE region in my home without there being actual damage. |
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Post by FOH on May 13, 2013 9:19:08 GMT -7
The LFE is 115, however the additional redirected bass that comes from a bass managed system accounts for the total.
The dB addition is somewhat over my head, however upon adding the other channels in (when they're utilized like that, which is often), it totals the mid 120's.
I'll poke around and find a good reference ... no pun intended.
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Post by harleyhualersc02 on Jun 24, 2013 16:39:30 GMT -7
What do you guys think about a crown itech 4000 to power the 4 fi ib3 18's with reserve power to upgrade later to 6 or 8 18's if I chose? Are the crown itech's good for ib subs?
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