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Post by jman on Dec 3, 2007 15:21:52 GMT -7
I had some people over yesterday to run some bassy scenes.
We watched a whole bunch of stuff and at most the clip lights only flashed briefly on the loudest spots.
The last thing we watched was Flight of the Phoenix and it hit some monumental SPL's. The clip lights didn't even flash and it was clean as a whistle through the entire scene.
Then we decided to take a break and have drinks/snacks. When we came back down about 15 minutes later, the clip light on the left channel stayed on when even a tiny amount of signal hit the amp. So I started to trouble-shoot. It was running in bridged mode with a 4 ohm load and the air coming out the back was vaguely warm at the most. If I disable bridge mode, the left channel still has the problem but the right is fine.
So what the hell happened to this supposedly tank of an amp? It was fine during the loud scenes and while running idle it craps out. The breaker didn't trip on the back and the clip lights rarely flashed and were never solid before it died.
I requested an RMA # through the Behringer site but so far no response. Hopefully I can get it fixed locally. Also I mod'd the fan so I'll have to discretely "un-mod" it. I was careful to keep an eye on the air temps coming out of the unit and it was never more than vaguely warm.
Are there any other amps in the $400-600 range that are more bulletproof than the Behringer? I found a thread on hometheatershack that had similar problems with the clip light coming on with even a tiny signal. Google finds a few other sites with similar reports so it's not an isolated problem.
Edit- The input gain was set to about 12'oclock on the left channel so it wasn't being "starved" for signal. The right gain knob was full off as per the manual.
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Post by ThomasW on Dec 3, 2007 17:14:46 GMT -7
Given the number of Behringer amps used in home audio there are surprising few failures. Yours is only the second one reported on this forum. Their use in DJ or real prosound applications maybe a different story.
Behringer has a trade-in warranty system if you have a local dealer who is a member of the program.
In the long run I'm sure the better QSC or similar amps costing double/triple or more the price of the Behringer will be more reliable....there's nothing in the Behringer price range that's any more reliable...
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Post by aespeakers on Dec 3, 2007 18:43:09 GMT -7
In low power applications like IB installs the EP2500's should usually be ok. They don't however work too well in PA system use. About 2 1/2 yrs ago I was contracted to do Nick Barnett's club Five Six in Green Bay here. To save money they wanted to go with cheaper amps and the EP2500's seemed like a good option. We purchased 6 of them.
Out of the box, 4 of them had issues with the power switch. Turning the switch on left them in protect mode. It would take from 2 to 5 times flipping the switch to get them to power up. The 5th one had a power switch that did not work. Luckily it was stuck in the "on" position and could be turned off by unplugging it. For lack of other options we had to use these amps anyway until something else could come in.
The subwoofers used were the horn loaded LAB Subwoofers designed by Tom Danley on prosoundweb.com . With the Eminence LAB12 woofers and the horn loading, these present a 4ohm nominal load to the amplifier. We ran each cabinet at 4ohm off a single bridged EP2500. We dialed the system in, set our limiting and compression to avoid the possibility of clipping the amplifiers and were ready for the opening night. About an hour into the night, all 4 of the amplifiers were heavily showing clipping according to the light on the amps. We brought the level of the system down about 6dB(should have cut power requirements to 1/4) and the amps still showed clipping. As this was an open night club at the time with a large crowd, they refused to lower the level anymore. Another 10 minutes later and four out of 8 of the woofers were toasted. The other 4 made it through the night.
The next day we again powered up the system with the amps on the remaining 2 cabinets. Shortly into playing again the clips lights came on. We could reduce the signal to almost nothing with the lights still coming on. There happened to be a large amount of DC voltage coming out of the amplifiers which explained the failure to the woofers. This only happened with a 4ohm bridged load though. with an 8ohm bridged load the amplifiers were fine. We swapped out the burnt up woofers, replaced each EP2500 with a QSC PLX3402 and they did not have an issue for the next year the club was open.
I guess take this for what it's worth. Driven hard they just don't seem to like the 4ohm load. If they power up out of the box and you don't need to run bridged at 4ohm I think you should be fine.
John
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Post by jman on Dec 4, 2007 0:20:27 GMT -7
Are there any alternatives to the ep2500? The crown K2 would be great but those are $1000+.
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Post by ThomasW on Dec 4, 2007 9:25:12 GMT -7
On this forum and lots of other forums people are running EP-2500 bridged with 4 ohm loads. And we don't see many problems being reported.
Just because you had one bad channel doesn't mean you need a different brand of amp.
Get your current amp repaired. If the same thing happens again then start looking for a replacement. And understand there will be no 'cheap' replacements. If you want or need something that can take a pounding the price of admission is $$$$
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Post by jman on Dec 4, 2007 10:10:59 GMT -7
I'm watching a Crown K2 on ebay. The seller is near me and it's at $850 with no bids, though 9 days left. Frying the EP2500 was the least of my worries. If I had damaged my Avalanche drivers with DC, that would be an absolute nightmare to get repaired. Shipping one way is like $50 each, and across the border so all sorts of hassles of making sure they don't charge me customs nonsense again. Would the K2 be absolutely bulletproof? I would consider spending the extra money as a longterm investment. BTW, the Avalanche 18's have dual 8ohm VC's right? I wired each driver in series, then all 4 drivers in parallel, for a 4 ohm load. Hope I didn't screw that up. (8x2=16 / 4 = 4ohms nominal)
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Post by diycable on Dec 4, 2007 10:25:56 GMT -7
I'm evaluating some new Pro-Sound amps that look promising. The build quality is better than any of the pro-audio amps I've seen. The price is somewhere between the Behringers and the Crown but assuming they deliver the power they are rated for, they could be a great solution. They have a 1 year "no questions asked" replacement policy and 5 year complete warranty. The pro-audio market requires 100% reliability and they are loaded with protection features including DC protection on the output (responsible for the toasted drivers), clipping protection, thermal, etc... The big-boy F1200TS is 1200W x 2 into 4 Ohms and over 2000 into 2 Ohms. I think they probably rated them on a constant voltage source. You won't get that kind of power directly out of your standard 15A breaker but the amp should be good for as much as you can pull from the wall. Retail is about $1200 but I'll be selling them for about half that with subwoofer purchases. www.faceaudio.com
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Post by jman on Dec 4, 2007 10:33:57 GMT -7
Uh oh ;D
I think the Av18 are dual 4ohm coils (!!!). I'm having a hard time finding the specs, the TS specs just give RE of 3.2
Now I have no idea what the DVC impedance are, one site says dual 2, one says dual 4, and Chad told me dual 8 when I bought them.
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Post by diycable on Dec 4, 2007 11:42:31 GMT -7
Uh oh ;D I think the Av18 are dual 4ohm coils (!!!). I'm having a hard time finding the specs, the TS specs just give RE of 3.2 Now I have no idea what the DVC impedance are, one site says dual 2, one says dual 4, and Chad told me dual 8 when I bought them. Measure the coil with a voltmeter.
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Post by jman on Dec 4, 2007 12:34:40 GMT -7
I think someone else did that here a few days ago with another driver but then people told him you can't measure the impedance that way.
I googled every combination of terms I can think of to find the impedance of the VC's but on some forums people say dual 4ohm, and others say dual 2ohm. If it's dual 4, then my wiring gave the Behringer a 2ohm load for bridged, which is too low. When I originally ordered the drivers, I talked to Chad Cuypers of Ascendant Audio and he told me they were 8ohm coils. That was what I discussed with him as back then I only had the Samson amps and they don't allow 4ohms bridged and we couldn't figure out any other wiring setup for 4 drivers to get bridged 8 or stereo 4ohms. Sigh.
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Post by ThomasW on Dec 4, 2007 12:48:53 GMT -7
Would the K2 be absolutely bulletproof? K2 are very good amps, but any amp can be destroyed with abuse. IOW, nothing is "absolutely-bulletproof"
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Post by ThomasW on Dec 4, 2007 13:09:57 GMT -7
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Post by diycable on Dec 4, 2007 13:46:44 GMT -7
I think someone else did that here a few days ago with another driver but then people told him you can't measure the impedance that way. I googled every combination of terms I can think of to find the impedance of the VC's but on some forums people say dual 4ohm, and others say dual 2ohm. If it's dual 4, then my wiring gave the Behringer a 2ohm load for bridged, which is too low. When I originally ordered the drivers, I talked to Chad Cuypers of Ascendant Audio and he told me they were 8ohm coils. That was what I discussed with him as back then I only had the Samson amps and they don't allow 4ohms bridged and we couldn't figure out any other wiring setup for 4 drivers to get bridged 8 or stereo 4ohms. Sigh. You cannot get impedance but you get a good idea of DCR. Let us know what you get on the VM and I can tell you if its a 2, 4 or 8 Ohm VC. Looks like Thomas answered your question though. You smoked the amp trying to drive <1 Ohm load.
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Post by jman on Dec 5, 2007 9:21:24 GMT -7
I can't find any diagrams for 4 DVC 2ohm coil setups, can you guys confirm this setup for a final 4ohm load? EDIT- found this, looks like the right setup
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ken
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by ken on Dec 5, 2007 13:22:50 GMT -7
are the drivers ok?
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Post by jman on Dec 5, 2007 15:15:37 GMT -7
They survived unscathed. I wired them up as per the above diagram and am running off the remaining channel on the Behringer while I wait for an RMA #.
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Post by jman on Jan 16, 2008 1:33:41 GMT -7
Update-
Behringer are morons. They originally promised "allow 2 weeks turnaround for shipping both ways".
So last week I emailed their support to find out about the RMA. No reply where they replied 3 previous times within 24 hours (which is what they promise when you submit a question). I waited 4 days and they never replied. So I phone their tech support and get bounced back and forth between various departments. Finally I get through to someone and they say, "the UPS warehouse screwed up and they will ship it immediately so expect another 10 business days, if customs doesn't cause any problems". So much for 2 weeks.
I get the feeling that if I hadn't called, they still wouldn't have done anything. Their website implies that they have an immediate RMA replacement. You take your broken unit to an outlet and they swap it right there.
What can you expect though. They make cheap stuff.
36 days and counting.
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Post by ThomasW on Jan 16, 2008 8:45:02 GMT -7
Their website implies that they have an immediate RMA replacement. You take your broken unit to an outlet and they swap it right there. Only if the dealer is a participating in this program. My guess is there's very little incentive for dealers to participate
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Post by jman on Jan 23, 2008 17:01:59 GMT -7
Finally got a replacement amp.
I set it to bridged mode and when I turn it on the left channel clip light is on solid. Hmmmmm.
I turned it off and disabled bridged mode and then it works fine off channel 1.
I'm using the series+parallel wiring from the diagram I posted above so it should be a 4 ohm load to the amp now.
Is it possible that one of the drivers is damaged/shorted? I could run 2 ohm stereo but that's the same load as 4 ohm bridged.
I've been using a Samson S1000, which isn't even rated for 4 ohms bridged and it works fine, though with less headroom.
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Post by ThomasW on Jan 23, 2008 22:06:07 GMT -7
Measure the resistance of the drivers with a DMM
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