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Post by chrisbee on Mar 17, 2006 2:50:48 GMT -7
As a music lover rather than a film buff I don't even own an AV receiver. So I am automatically denied the inbuilt filtration you take for granted and even the ability to use a BFD.
My pre-power stereo amp doesn't have pre-outs. So I use high level connections with my present 16-46.
Would the redundant SVS PCi amp have enough power for 4 x AE IB15s if the TIB will be ceiling-mounted? The manifold will sited just above the present and very successful big cylinder in a 30 feet long room with masses of LF gain.
Or should I invest in a 500 watt British BK plate amp? Same facilities but a bit more oomph. (claimed 1000 watt peak into 4 ohms)
Thanks
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Post by ThomasW on Mar 17, 2006 9:43:20 GMT -7
You might want to make some local inquires for a mod/repair service that could add a set of inputs/outputs to your integrated amp.
Using high level signals for crossover work isn't the best option. Nor is IMO buying more amps to perform this function. It's a useful bandaid for those cash strapped noobies, but not a valid option for anyone else...
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Post by chrisbee on Mar 17, 2006 12:21:34 GMT -7
Thankyou Thomas Let's pretend I'm a noobie intead of an obsessive old fool with well over 40 years of hands-on audio experience... Okay: I have a stereo system. Not even tone controls! How do I roll off the TIB without damaging the audio signal? (Even if I do obtain a low level signal and drive the TIB with a "quality" pro-amp?) Note that I had no intention of touching my precious speaker signal with any kind of filtration.
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Post by ThomasW on Mar 17, 2006 13:36:05 GMT -7
My apologies, I wasn't trying to create a religious discussion.
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Post by chrisbee on Mar 17, 2006 14:08:13 GMT -7
Methinks you're letting the St.Thomas appellation go to your head! ;D How do I roll off a TIB using a stereo amp without all the digital jiggery-pokery of an AV receiver? You mean I should put my multi-thousand dollar signal through a BFD?
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Post by ThomasW on Mar 17, 2006 14:42:31 GMT -7
Were you to have your integrated modified to add pre-outs and main in's, you'd put an active analog crossover in the loop. Send the HF back into the integrated for it's amp, send the LF to an equalizer and the sub amp.
Splitting these things with line level DC analog filters is a lot less problematic than using high level AC feeds.
My system is easier since I use a Ayre K5xe preamp. The output of it feeds an analog crossover. HF sent to their appropriate amps, the LF goes to a BFD and on to the sub amp. If I'm feeling like a purest I have an analog parameteric EQ for the sub....
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Post by chrisbee on Mar 17, 2006 15:44:50 GMT -7
It's not an integrated. It's a pre-power 2 box combination with detached PS in a third box. (Probably irrelevant to this dicussion) Let's assume that I can obtain a low level pre-out/ power amp input somehow. It wasn't my original intention but no matter. This is starting to look much more complicated than just rolling off the sub using the same plate amp to power the TIB as well. (While leaving the speakers running full range) Here is an inexpensive UK-built unit which might cover my requirements. I'm not sure whether this was the sort of thing you had in mind. www.bkelec.com/Modules/asbf.htm Can I try to pin you down here? Hopefully this information will be of rather wider interest than just this thread. Regarding stereo musical reproduction only: Do you consider that allowing normal (unfiltered) bass output from floorstanding speakers (running full range) actually compromises the potentially high sound quality of a TIB subwoofer? In other words: Are you adamant that the TIB should carry the entire bass load and the speakers must be rolled off for best sound quality? Thanks
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Post by ThomasW on Mar 17, 2006 16:14:08 GMT -7
I think the crossover filtering functions should occur with line level signals, not using signals that have been run through a power amplifier. So I would not advocate using any box like that.
Yes. In my life I can count on one hand the number of speakers I've heard that were capable of reproducing a fullrange signal. They all cost $50,000 or more
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ryans
Full Member
Posts: 132
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Post by ryans on Mar 17, 2006 19:23:44 GMT -7
Even though you're using the high level inputs, the plate amplifier is still providing the power for the SVS subwoofer. The incoming signal does not directly drive the SVS woofer at all.
So the PCi amp is not redundant.
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Post by chrisbee on Mar 18, 2006 0:49:41 GMT -7
Thankyou both I am aware that the Bash amp powers the internal driver of the SVS. (regardless of high or low level connections) Had it not it would have been a passive subwoofer and my stereo amp would probably be glowing in the dark. Since I already own the Bash plate amp and it offers 350 watts of free power it just seemed like a good starting point for my IB. I had simply intended to remove the Bash amp from the SVS cylinder and use it to power the IB instead. If I have an IB subwoofer installed then the SVS becomes redundant in that sense. It was never my intention to filter my speaker signal. Particularly with a passive crossover. It seems that the rules for IB use are completely at odds with normal stereo music practice. Using AV hardware, pro amps and BFDs is fine. But using high level connections, full range speakers and plate amps is out of the question on quality grounds? Who makes up these rules? Can anyone recommmend an adjustable (line level) active crossover suitable for IB application please? Thanks
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Post by chrisbee on Mar 18, 2006 1:59:40 GMT -7
I have just discovered the Paradigm X-30 control unit is mentioned in the FAQ. Is this unit suitable as an active crossover in my IB + stereo music system? Thanks
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Post by ThomasW on Mar 18, 2006 9:23:43 GMT -7
Having used external active crossovers in my stereo system for some 30+yrs, I assure you this is not a new phenomena related to the onset of home theater digital processing. It is however a spin-off of pro audio where active external crossovers have been used for some 50yrs. And where today one can find some very high quality crossovers at attractive pricing.
Over the years home audio companies such as Mark Levinson, ARC (yes tubes) Accuphase, Pass Labs, Marchand, and dozens of others have offered active external crossovers. Given the onset of A/V processing the demand for these has wained...
There are numerous advantages to using active filtration (bi-amping), but that's a topic for a different forum...
Having a situation where an amp level signal is sent and the bass is filtered out is not the best for creating the highest quality bass. This is why active line level filtration is preferred.
Were you not averse to pro-sound gear I'd mention the Behringer CX2310 (yes it's analog). I recently purchased one of these as a temporary replacement while I repaired the Marchand in my tri-amped family room system. Much to my surprise (and embarrassment) the 2310 was the sonic equal to the highly modified Marchand XM9 costing 5 times more $$$
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Post by chrisbee on Mar 18, 2006 13:34:30 GMT -7
Hi Thomas Thankyou for the recommendation! I shall start trawling round the very few pro-gear shops on Monday. I am on a steep learning curve here but broad-minded enough to believe that pro-gear will not physically destroy my hifi, or my life. Just try and find it in your heart to forgive me if I choose a quality, British, hand-made pro-amp from BK Electronics. As most of your (CPR-made?) US "big names" are completely unavailable over here. The only hits locally for "Paradigm" were for a popular, local rock band. ;D Ain't parochialism wonderful? Global Trade? Who's heard of it? Best regards Chrisbee
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Post by chrisbee on Mar 22, 2006 5:26:28 GMT -7
Thomas
The Behringer CX2310 uses balanced connections.
What are your thoughts on the Paradigm X-30 as a simpler alternative to the CX2310?
Thanks
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Post by ThomasW on Mar 22, 2006 9:22:00 GMT -7
I think the 2310 is a better deal, given it's 24dB/octave L/R crossover and high level of flexibliity.
I've been making interconnects for decades. For this 'experiment' I grabbed cheap $0.25/ft microphone wire and spent an afternoon making some balanced IC's to connect all my gear together remember, the EQ has balanced circuits was well. Although they do have the option for 1/4" adapters.
I was stunned at how quiet everything as with the switch to balanced lines. Now all my gear (preamp, power amps etc) have the ability to be run S/E or balanced, so I'm sure that effects this situation as well..
Anyway, if making some RCA to XLR interconnects is a big deal for you then use the X30. If whipping up some custom cables isn't a big deal go with the Behringer
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Post by chrisbee on Mar 23, 2006 0:34:55 GMT -7
Thanks again Thomas. The Behringer is much more readily available over here but how I was going to achieve balanced connections had me baffled for a while. Particularly considering my present difficulties in obtaining pre-out and main-in connections. But your last post provided the necessary information and the answer to my lack of suitable amplifier connections. There is an excellent online cable company in England who will make up many kinds of cables to order at very modest prices: I already use a full set of their inexpensive, high quality interconnects. Flashback Cables should hopefully be able to achieve balanced input and output connnections for an active crossover by making two new replacement connection cables to go between my preamp and power amp. Fitted with suitable plugs (XLRs) to replace the present one-piece cable this should solve all my connection problems at a single (or rather double) stroke. www.flashbacksales.co.uk/acatalog/cables.htmlRegards Chrisbee
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Post by ThomasW on Mar 23, 2006 11:20:08 GMT -7
The instructions for any piece of Behringer gear shows how to wire the XLRs for singled ended operation.
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Post by chrisbee on Mar 23, 2006 16:08:40 GMT -7
Thanks Thomas The necessary balanced cables should be with me in a couple of days. Same day despatch. Excellent service from David at Flashback Cables, as always. He responded to my tentative enquiry with a nice email explaining all the details. He's a real audio enthusiast. Now I have to choose a suitable amp for the IB.
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Post by ThomasW on Mar 23, 2006 17:15:09 GMT -7
Be prepared to lift the ground on the XO. Often there are ground loop problems using prosound gear with single ended cables.
Here I just use AC 'cheater' plugs to do that. I have no idea what you guys have available....
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Post by coldie on Mar 23, 2006 22:27:06 GMT -7
OK not to get off on a side topic (well actually yes to get off on a side topic)
what do audiophiles have against digital gear? I realize that some is horrible (just like analog gear), but our ears are in the end digital (the worlds first ADC!) I know this is a holy war, and I don't want to really stir it up here, but can someone point me to any sort of summary as to why digital is bad?
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