IB for SQ

[davecan]

Hello All,
I'm new here as of today and have a few questions I'd like to ask. I'm thinking on adding a sub to my home stereo to augment the lows, and I'm interested in what IB rated sub would be the best for SQ. I'll most likely just use one sub as most of my listening is done at lower levels and SQ is my #1 prority.
Would the Dayton IB 15'' work for me for sq and lower level listening? My system is a cd player feeding a Decware Taboo SEP 6w per channel amp out to diy BIB cabs using Fostex fe108ez fullrange drivers. Thanks for any help.. Dave Vic,BC Canada

[PeterW]

Welcome to the forum Dave!
Not only can an IB play with better SQ than other designs, IB's also have the capability to extend their response far lower most designs as well. IB's have a much smoother response curve in the low frequencies. A dayton IB 15" would be able to play most bass at low levels in an IB, about 70-80db, but would have little or no headroom to play lower frequendcies. What i'm geting at here is that to recive the fullest benifit from an IB sub, you need to dicplace lots of air so as to take advantage of the low frequency capability of the design.
While a single Dayton IB 15" might get the job done with a highpass at say 20hz, if you bought four of them, the IB would be able to go down another octave(10hz) at the same Spl level.

Its up to you to decide if you need the extra response. Music listening would not benifit as much from the extra octave as would Home theater. So personally i would recomend that you use two drivers in a horizontal manifold to decrease wall vibration.

That said, there is a company located in Saskatchewan run by mrogowski that just sold off their entire inventory of MJ 18" subs. They were very well priced and had 12mm xmax. They currently are out of stock but if you dont mind waiting a little while, i would suggest buying a pair.

Here's a link to the MJ 18 on the company website.
tinyurl.com/ygnzqk

-Peter

[ThomasW]

davecan said:

I'll most likely just use one sub as most of my listening is done at lower levels and SQ is my #1 prority.

If by one sub you mean one driver, probably not the best idea.

Since 60+dB is ambient noise floor SPL for many homes, I think you'll probably want something capable of somewhat higher out put levels. The Mach 5 are a steal for those living in Canada. So get a couple of Mark's 15"s or 18"s and let them loaf along.

[davecan]

Thanks for the info guys... Would those drivers have the sq factor? they seem very inexpensive... I guess I'd like to investigate the top sq sounding subs and if I had to use two drivers to get up past the noise floor then no prob. My main speakers (the Fostex fullrange) are 90db1w1m and I'm powering my mains with an amp thats only 6wrms per channel, so I really do not need the big loud bass or HT type levels etc, just seeking top notch lower level sound.. Dave

[titch]

Just to let you know Mach5 is out of Winnipeg, Manitoba.

[PeterW]

davecan said:

Thanks for the info guys... Would those drivers have the sq factor? they seem very inexpensive... I guess I'd like to investigate the top sq sounding subs and if I had to use two drivers to get up past the noise floor then no prob. My main speakers (the Fostex fullrange) are 90db1w1m and I'm powering my mains with an amp thats only 6wrms per channel, so I really do not need the big loud bass or HT type levels etc, just seeking top notch lower level sound.. Dave

Here's a link to something that Ebr said quite well about that..
tinyurl.com/y7jnh5

[davecan]

I agree with that link PeterW I like to do lots of research and ask questions before I buy, I'm not part of the audio crowd that believes high cost equals better sound, also I'm without the deep pockets that some audiophiles seem to have. I liked the price I saw for the Dayton IB but without having heard it I thought it would be good to ask you guys here as I have had zero experience with IB.. Dave

[ThomasW]

Our approach with the use of multiple drivers is primarily for improved low end protection (not running out of exursion) and to keep the workload low on each driver thereby keeping distortion low, and sound quality high.

Given the very modest cost of the Mach 5's, it might be a good idea to buy 4. Doing that will give you a sensitivity near that of your existing speakers. If you don't want to buy 4, at least build a box that will hold 4 in the event you want upgrade.

[davecan]

Thanks ThomasW and everyone for the help and info, I really appreciate it. I'll maybe look into those drivers thanks Dave

[davecan]

I hope it was ok to post this thread where I did, I just figured out that maybe I should have put this in the Loudspeaker section
Any advice on these? the price seems reasonable and they offer pair pricing and kit also... Between the Shiva Classic mrkIV 12'' and the Tempest Classic 15'' any advice? I'm thinking on the 12'' Shiva's... www.creativesound.ca Dave

[ThomasW]

Sure it's fine to post these questions here. The forum's software doesn't allow me to move threads or posts..

With these really low frequencies it's all about displacement and having lots of it. So it really doesn't matter how you about getting it.

IMO 15" or 18"s are the best choice when one has the space for the drivers.

I have 12"s because that's what fit in the location I had available. Were I able to use 15"s or 18"s that's what I would have bought.

[davecan]

Thanks Thomas I was hoping I didn't mess up to much posting in this section... ;D Do the Shiva's and the Tempest sound fairly close to each other, or is one a fair bit better in sq for a IB installation... Dave

[ThomasW]

Years ago when the Tempest was first introduced, the guy I design 'regular' speakers with (JonMarsh) with looked at it's T/S parameters and said "it's nearly the perfect driver".

That said, a lot of time has passed, so the Tempest these days in an also ran compared to drivers with the newest techology....

Since you indicated that you're a "value" shopper, you can buy 2 of the cast frame 15"s from Mach 5 for the CSS price of a single Tempest. And you can almost buy 3 of the stamped steel framed 18"s...

Since I keep recommending the Mach 5 stuff for people living in Canada, I need to add some info.....

I have no financial connection to Mach 5 or any other company that is in the business of providing loudspeakers to the public. When I recommend a speaker it's a function of either "best-bang-for-the-buck", or best investment for the person's needs or wants. This is why I go from recommending a $60 18" from Mach 5 to a $975 18" made by AuraSound or TC-Sounds.

More trivia....

All the Shiva and Tempest drivers (original or extra-crispy) oops I mean 'classic' are made by Eminence USA. The Parts Express, DVC-12, DVC-15 and IB-15" are also made by Eminence USA. And there's only minor differences between any of these drivers. This means that there will be minimal if any audible differences between any of these in an IB install.

Were I living in Canada and wanting to build a budget but high SQ IB, I'd snap up as many of the Mach 5 18"s as I could cram into the available space. The greater the available displacement, the lower the workload, and the lower the workload the lower the subsequent distortion.

Since you're in the investigation stage of this, know that Mach 5 has on the drawing board a cast frame 18" with much higher Xmax than their current one. That might be THE driver for Canadian IB sub builders when they become available.

[davecan]

Thanks Thomas, bigger is better I'm asuming where IB is concerned. My diy cabs for my fullrange drivers are based on a Terry Cain design and their called BIB horns (bigger is better) ;D.
Anyhow there is a stupid good deal going on at Elemental Designs right now for 12'' drivers at $25.00 a piece . I know they had some trouble a few years back and got a bad rep, but since then they have been doing great as a company and are gaining alot of respect. I know they aren't 15's or 18's but for the money I could buy 4 and only spend a $100.00 What do you think?, they state they can be used in IB but how good I don't know... www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/index.php?cPath=92
Dave

[PeterW]

The mach 5 woofers have a $/liter ratio of 24$ per liter
these other ones have a ratio of 27$ liter


Not including shipping..

[davecan]

Thanks Peter, I saw that liter ratio guide but what confuses me is what about driver sq. It seems for IB the prority is the cost per liter ratio and counting on moving more air to be a factor of sq, but what about the sound of the driver itself.. If a person could choose between one 18'' driver for $50.00 and another 18 for $100.00, but the $100.00 driver sounds better ,then wouldn't 2 of those ultimatly be better than 4 for $50.00 if output wasn't the only factor for the same money spent?
Lets say your going to try out different boxed subs in your music room or HT room ie: Paridigm,Velodyne, SVS, Energy, Totem etc all 12'' or all 15'' subs, surely one or two is going to rise above the rest for sq and not just sheer output. This I think would also apply very much to IB subwoofers as well and thats what I would prefer to go with in the end is the better sounding drivers... So if the ED 12''ers sound better than the Mach5 18''ers but would'nt keep up in the wow my rooms shaking kinda thing, I'd still rather have the 12's.. Too many choices out there, thats the prob lol..... Thanks Dave

[ThomasW]

Regarding the ED drivers I'm not a fan of poly cones for low bass, generally speaking they aren't as stiff as their paper counterparts, so they breakup earlier. Also given the very low Xmax, it would take a bizillion of them to get a high Vd, and shipping/taxes/etc to Canada would be a deal breaker.

Regarding cost per liter and SQ. it's like this there are good drivers, very good drivers, and "oh my God drivers". The cost difference between these significant.

Since you're looking at 'best bang for the buck', and living in Canada there's nothing better than the Mach 5. Compare how many ED 12"s it will take to equal the Vd of a pair of the Mach 5 18"s

[davecan]

Thanks Thomas, I edited my post before I saw your last post. Point taken Mach5 it is..... Could you give an example of good, very good and oh my God drivers? Thanks to everyone for putting up with all my questions, you guys rock Dave

[PeterW]

Good drivers: Mach5 MJ-18
Better Drivers: FI Q series divers
Soundsplinter Rl-P15,
Crazy Sweet Awsome Amazing drivers that are perfect for IB:
Not really.
Most Subs compromise something, to get either sensitivity, or dicplacement, really a great IB is not so much the subs, as there are a good array of Drivers to choose from. A good IB is defined as much by the other factors such as rearwave space, room size and shape, total system dicplacement, system amplification, equalization, and other such variables.
Don't get your toga in a knot over which drivers to get, its really not hard to build a good IB.

As long as you have other IB builders to help you..

[davecan]

Thanks Peter, I'm lucky the wife picked me up a whole bunch of knotless toga's so I'm good ;D Totally appreciate all the help and wisdom from you all. Thanks Dave