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Post by kaidomac on Apr 18, 2012 7:14:55 GMT -7
I am wiring up several rooms with speakers and would like to do in-ceiling IB subs for music use in each room. The basic idea is to mount each IB setup in the attic, with a decorative grate in the ceiling. Typically I've used 10" subwoofers for music applications (cars/2.1 systems), although 15" subwoofers seem more popular in the IB world. I saw one from Dayton designed specifically for IB use: www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-455Although if possible, I would like to keep the budget on the smaller side - I'm using Lepai TA2020+ amps for the speakers ($22/pop) and DIY speaker cubes using 3" full-range drivers, so something to match that would be great. And for music use only, not for movies. My questions are: 1. Best subwoofer config for this setup? 2. Recommended amp? (mostly have used Dayton's & BASH's in the past) 3. Any concerns with sound leakage around the attic to the other subs? Should I do soundproofing around the IBL's somehow? 4. Do I need a Feedback Destroyer or MiniDSP? Notes: 1. For music use (2 to 4 small speakers in the room's corners) 2. Ceiling-mounted (IB in attic) 3. Rectangular rooms, 250 to 300 square feet in size 4. Each system is standalone with their own sources (no shared resources) |
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 18, 2012 9:47:58 GMT -7
Hi,
The answer to most of the questions is 'don't have a clue no one's done this before' (that being multiple subs each playing a different source while the drivers share a common space) Sounds like a recipe for problems to me....
I can't imagine any 3" speaker (other than one in a HUGE horn) providing enough output for anything other than a desk computer system.
Whether the subs will interfere is a function of how close the rooms (subs) are to each other, how loud they're playing, and how much insulation there is in the attic. Certainly has the potential to sound weird if someone in one room is listening to chamber music and the room beside it is listening to metal
I think your best bet is to use a woofer designed for a small sealed box, installed in a small sealed box. That way you have less worry about power handing and the subs are isolated from each other.
Sorry I don't have any knowledge about Lepai TA2020+ amps.
The PE or O-Audio BASH amps would be a good choice for a single 12" in a ceiling mounted box.
As for EQ yes I think you'd want it but how many channels to you need?
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Post by kaidomac on Apr 18, 2012 19:44:35 GMT -7
Regarding the 3" speakers, they actually sound fabulous (to my ears, at least!). They fill up the room really, really well - minus the low-end bass (box size is a 5" cube per speaker...so, subwoofer required). The smaller rooms will get 2 each and the larger rooms will get 4 each. My test setup is running a 250 square foot room and sounds really nice for my use. They are currently running off Lepai amps, which are small 20-watt Class D tripath stereo amplifiers. My current plan is to run an Airport Express into a Lepai, then run the speaker wire outputs to a Monoprice volume control: www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10903&cs_id=1090301&p_id=8241&seq=1&format=2Then run the volume control outputs to the sub amp, then run the sub amp to the speakers. On the 250w Dayton subwoofer amp, there are high-level in/outs for that type of setup: www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-803Thus, the computers and iPhones in the house can send audio via Airplay to all of the rooms simultaneously or individually, and the volume can be controlled manually via the dial, or digitally via software if the hardware dial is turned up. The subs get the signal and then pass it onto the speakers. And so we get to the subwoofers...since the speakers are all going to be corner-mounted on the ceiling, I'd like to hide the subwoofer in the ceiling as well, rather than in a sealed box somewhere on the floor. The problem this presents is isolation from room to room via the attic. Maybe a sealed in-ceiling sub would be a better type of setup. I was initially thinking maybe a pair of the Dayton 15" IB subs and a 500w amp or something to complement the speakers for music, although that seems a bit overkill price-wise for the cost of the speakers, but then again IB setups don't come cheap and I am perfectly happy with the highs & mids of my current speakers, so a little investment in the low-end wouldn't hurt. I am definitely open to suggestions. |
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zac
New Member
Posts: 45
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Post by zac on Apr 19, 2012 0:31:36 GMT -7
I would go for small sealed in ceiling subs.
IB seems to be overkill for your application.
/Z
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Post by kaidomac on Apr 19, 2012 6:29:53 GMT -7
I would go for small sealed in ceiling subs. IB seems to be overkill for your application. /Z That's doable. I haven't been able to figure out how to deal with multiple IB's in a single attic space, so that's probably the best route to go - keep one IB for the home theater room & do the rest sealed. Is there much information available on the best methods for doing this? (mounting, doing a ceiling grill, etc.) Eyeballing the Dayton 10" Reference HO Subwoofer right now, which has a Qts of 0.37: (nice small box, although I guess that's not a real big deal in the attic) www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-462The BASH brand of amps has a 500w unit available ($250) with high-level inputs/outputs: www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-752Although Dayton has a 250w unit for $120 - I tend not to crank it super loud for normal listening, so that might be a better option? www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-803That seems like a pretty good setup for around $500 per room: $90 - speaker electronics (drivers & electronics, stereo amp, wall brackets, etc.) $30 - in-wall volume controller & in-wall speaker wire $260 - 10" sub & 250w plate amp (or $390 for the larger 500w amp) $100 - Airport Express unit $20 - large sheet of MDF for making the enclosures That gives me a ceiling-mounted 2.1 setup with wireless audio streaming from the computers & portable devices, with volume control from either the wall or from the streaming device itself. Any particular location good for mounting the sub? Corner, middle of a wall...? |
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 20, 2012 5:56:39 GMT -7
I'd use the 10" Dayton HF instead of the HO. The HF will allow you to run a higher crossover point and attempt to fill the hole in the response where the 3" drivers roll off.
If you want the best sound quality avoid using in-wall attenuators
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Post by kaidomac on Apr 21, 2012 19:28:30 GMT -7
I'd use the 10" Dayton HF instead of the HO. The HF will allow you to run a higher crossover point and attempt to fill the hole in the response where the 3" drivers roll off. If you want the best sound quality avoid using in-wall attenuators What would you recommend for the crossover point, 80hz? Also, the second post in the linked thread below says that the "RS-HF is not for small sealed boxes, as the cone/cap will oil-can" - what do you think? techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=218476I actually think I'm going to do a test run with a 10" Dayton DVC subwoofer in a sealed configuration with the 70-watt plate amp, then save the real investment in the IB rig for the home theater: www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-486I've never setup an in-ceiling subwoofer before...what's the best location for it, a corner? So minus the in-wall attenuator, that lowers the cost to just about $300 per room: $100 - 10" DVC + 70w amp $90 - Speaker + 20w amp $100 - Airport Express What I'll probably do is build a custom speaker grill using white cloth in a square on the ceiling: www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-334Also, there is some information on bypassing the Lepai's volume pot here: www.diyaudio.com/wiki/Amplifier:Lepai_T_AmpThus the volume is controlled 100% through software, with the sub amp acting as the crossover to the speakers. Pretty straightforward design overall, I think - Airport Express to modded Lepai stereo amp to 70w sub amp with a 10" Dayton DVC sub, then out to the 3" corner-mounted drivers in a 2 or 4-piece stereo setup. The 3" drivers (Aura NS3) are 8-ohm and can be wired in parallel off the Lepai, so I'll try that as well to see if it has enough volume to fill up the rooms. I would like a cheaper audio streaming solution, but I think the $100 Airport Express is as low as I can go. I use MOG a lot on my iPhone and I can send any other iOS-based audio out via Airplay, and the computers can pipe all audio output out via AirFoil (available for PC & Mac): www.rogueamoeba.com/airfoil/mac/And can also act as AirPlay receivers using AirServer: www.airserverapp.com/And the portable devices can use the AirView app to act as audio receivers as well. I like Sonos better as a whole-house audio solution, but AirPlay is more compatible with what I want to do thanks to third-party apps. I also might try out an auto-sensing A/V switch for manual input of non-AirPlay devices: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001E1THL2And then run a Minijack cable down to a keystone jack in each room: www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10426&cs_id=1042608&p_id=6576&seq=1&format=2 |
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 22, 2012 6:26:44 GMT -7
What would you recommend for the crossover point, 80hz? As high as testing indicates will work without smearing the stereo image I think it's a good idea to look beyond an off hand comment one person posts in a thread. For example... techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=229804Again like the 3" drivers, that PE 10" with it's 6mm of Xmax looks fine for a desktop PC sub and not much else Location testing is discussed in the FAQ |
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Post by kaidomac on Apr 22, 2012 9:41:40 GMT -7
What would you recommend for the crossover point, 80hz? As high as testing indicates will work without smearing the stereo image I think it's a good idea to look beyond an off hand comment one person posts in a thread. For example... techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=229804Again like the 3" drivers, that PE 10" with it's 6mm of Xmax looks fine for a desktop PC sub and not much else Location testing is discussed in the FAQ That's why I asked ;D What ceiling/wall speakers would you recommend? I think most people must have much larger rooms than I do, or else use their speakers are much higher listening levels than I normally listen to (which is decently loud!), because I've been pretty happy with the little 5" speakers designed by Wolf: s18.photobucket.com/albums/b117/wolf_teeth_speaker/PC/I actually like them better than the Dayton BR-1s kit I built a few years ago, and so far I haven't heard any in-ceiling or in-wall speakers that I truly liked. I did read the FAQ on location placement, but wasn't sure if using a sealed configuration would make a difference in where I put it. Per the FAQ, I am planning on doing a test install centered between the speakers. I guess one other question I had is on the note about stereo IB's in the FAQ - if I do a larger room with 4 speakers (2 stereo sets), if I should run the same setup - center two sealed subs between the two sets of speakers in the room. |
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 22, 2012 10:11:16 GMT -7
so far I haven't heard any in-ceiling or in-wall speakers that I truly liked. That's it in a nutshell, trying to get good sound from a ceiling or in-wall is almost impossible. It's one of those laws of physics things. At one point Tannoy made an in-wall/on-wall 12" coax. I haven't heard them, but have read reports of them sounding pretty good. They're of course not cheap. If I 'had' to do something like this on a budget I'd probably use the Eminence Beta-12CX 12" Coaxial Driver PE sells combined with the best compression driver you could afford. |
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Post by kaidomac on Apr 22, 2012 13:50:04 GMT -7
That's it in a nutshell, trying to get good sound from a ceiling or in-wall is almost impossible. It's one of those laws of physics things. At one point Tannoy made an in-wall/on-wall 12" coax. I haven't heard them, but have read reports of them sounding pretty good. They're of course not cheap. If I 'had' to do something like this on a budget I'd probably use the Eminence Beta-12CX 12" Coaxial Driver PE sells combined with the best compression driver you could afford. Yeah...I don't consider myself an audiophile, and the cube speakers sounded far better than even the expensive in-wall speakers I heard. So not so much budget-oriented as much as much as "they do the job"  The place I'm looking at moving into has a kitchen that partially opens up into the living room, which is where I'd want to put the IB sub. My test setup right now is going into my current rental place, and if the tests works out I'll just clone that setup for every room in the new place. I do want to try out an in-wall DIY system by CJD called the In-Khan-Neatos: www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=32111I think a 7.1 setup with those and an IB sub would be perfect. But that will either be later this year or next year. Is there any issues with the attic being finished? The place I'm looking at has a gambrel (barn-style) roof, giving the attic lots of storage space...I'll probably put in some Ikea cabinets and put some laminate flooring or something in there. Don't know if IB's work better with puffy insulation etc. |
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Post by kaidomac on Apr 23, 2012 19:03:58 GMT -7
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 23, 2012 21:54:16 GMT -7
Sorry but those amps aren't something used for IB subs, as a result I have no experience with them. That makes recommendations problematic.
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Post by kaidomac on Apr 24, 2012 4:28:03 GMT -7
Sorry but those amps aren't something used for IB subs, as a result I have no experience with them. That makes recommendations problematic. No problem - I'll post back when I move and can start tearing apart the new place for the IB home theater Thanks for everything! |
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