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Post by jimstewart on Feb 13, 2008 8:19:30 GMT -7
I have been looking into a single driver subwoofer for some time now. My long term plan is to make a larger (read 20cuft) bass reflex enclosure, enjoy it for a bit. Move(to a new house) and then make a IB system utilizing the driver from the earlier project. That all being said I have looked at alot of drivers (like 50 seriously) I have seriously considered the Fi q18 and the tempest x. But in my searching I have come across talk about the tempest x big brother, an 18" with xbl named the maelstrom-x(formerly the XJ-18). Now one part of me says vacuum it up and get the q18 its better than anything i have ever owned and im sure ill be happy with it. But the other side of me says "get the best mo#$%*#cking sub you can afford"(I usually listen to this side of my personality). Heres a link : www.subwoofer-builder.com/drivers.htm its at the bottom. and another : www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=46027.20and : www.subwoofer-builder.com/ib-tempest.htm note the price in AU No mention of it on Diycables.com (where i would get the tempest). I am really surprised not to see any talk of this driver on the forum, any have any thoughts?
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Post by ThomasW on Feb 13, 2008 10:19:30 GMT -7
The criteria for a single driver EBS enclosure is different than the criteria for the multiple driver IB subs we recommend.
For reasons that should be obvious there is no circumstance where we would recommend the use of a single driver in an IB...
We prefer not to speculate about drivers under development. When a product is shipping to end users discussion makes sense.
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Post by diycable on Feb 13, 2008 10:44:18 GMT -7
The Maelstrom-X won't be a great IB driver necessarily. Its design goal was aimed more at the resonant system/sealed box designs.
The DPL-15 that is coming will be a better choice. The parameters are better for IB use (hey... that was our design goal) and its easier to use multiples in a reasonable sized manifold. Cost per unit of displacement is better also.
The Tempest-X will still be available and works great in IBs but the DPL-15 is going to be more cost effective. It will be much cheaper to ship too because its about half the weight of the Tempest-X.
Neither are available yet but the development is pretty much done. I feel pretty confident the parameters won't change much in the production versions and I've submitted orders for both. They just need to build them and then to make their way across the Pacific.
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Post by jimstewart on Feb 15, 2008 8:37:28 GMT -7
Curmudgeon in training indeed.
"The criteria for a single driver EBS enclosure is different than the criteria for the multiple driver IB subs we recommend." Thats a big 10-4 and a little DAAA. I reject completely the implied concept that a driver doesn't exist that would work fairly well in both a large bass reflex design and an infinite baffle system.
"For reasons that should be obvious there is no circumstance where we would recommend the use of a single driver in an IB..." I'm assuming the limited displacement of a single driver is what your referring to but i can think of many others. BUT who said i was considering using only one driver? I apologize for any confusion on this front, but I would purchase a second driver and probably long term if my financial situation improves I would purchase even another two drivers for a total of 4 drivers.
"We prefer not to speculate about drivers under development. When a product is shipping to end users discussion makes sense." Who's we? Myself and my small circle of audio friends have made an amateur sport out of speculation on upcoming equipment and designs.
I sincerely hope this post doesn't come off as a to much of a flame job to you Tom. I have found this site informative and entertaining and I do truly appreciate all the effort you and other members have put into this tome of bass.
Any idea what the release date is for the DPL-15. I have missed this driver in my searching could some one link me to a set of T/S parameters even if there only preliminary?
One more thing....China....I know labor is extremely cheap but I have extremely strong feeling about what the chinese government is doing with there currency/environment/civil rights(or lack there of)/Darfur/Tibet/Taiwan the list goes on. There are many fine American and European companies capable of manufacturing fine drivers and extremely competitive prices. I was recently at #$%@^#$ in ohio, they mentioned to me that there production facility was at less than half capacity to fulfill there stock requirements and they have been looking for domestic partners to fill out there production schedule.
Just tryin to help And thank you guys for your help Jim Stewart
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Post by ThomasW on Feb 15, 2008 10:56:52 GMT -7
Me and the mouse in my pocket
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Post by diycable on Feb 15, 2008 18:47:30 GMT -7
Hey... we love China at DIYCable. My brother is Chinese, two of my kids are from Ethiopia, one from Guatemala and another from Indiana. The one thing I've learned is that while we are all different, we are also all pretty much the same.
The Chinese govt has all kinds of skeletons in the closet, but what govt. doesn't? The US Government killed off most of the Indian population in North America and took their land. Should people not buy American? The Chinese government is also dealing with social and economic conditions that are MUCH different than the ones we have to struggle with. Some of our perceptions of their "problems" are pretty shallow.
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Post by jimstewart on Feb 15, 2008 23:30:11 GMT -7
"The Chinese govt has all kinds of skeletons in the closet, " and the bathroom, kitchen, bed room, down in the basement out in the shed, backyards half full (ding dong)"oh look another shipment of skeletons"
extremely informative on all fronts gentleman, not the information I was looking for but informative none the less.
Fi q18 it is.
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Post by chrisbee on Feb 16, 2008 1:50:28 GMT -7
This is neither the place to discuss politics nor single driver non-IB designs.
It is also considered very bad form to post direct links to other forums. It draws readers away from the specialist discussions here and favours the advertisers on the linked forum.
Try reading the FAQs before sharing your personal baggage. The "curmudgeon" has worked long and hard providing these. They are a unique resource unmatched anywhere else. As is the list of available drivers.
Do let us know if you ever get round to building a real IB and can share some useful insights with us.
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Post by diycable on Feb 16, 2008 11:27:21 GMT -7
This is neither the place to discuss politics nor single driver non-IB designs. Awe come on... where is the fun in that? I chased him off just by saying I like the Chinese. That's all it took... Oh... if you want to punish the Chinese Govt. you need to buy Chinese goods. They are trying to slow growth so you would be defeating their evil plans.
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Post by chrisbee on Feb 16, 2008 13:56:27 GMT -7
Awe come on... where is the fun in that? Oh... if you want to punish the Chinese Govt. you need to buy Chinese goods. They are trying to slow growth so you would be defeating their evil plans. I am determined to buy goods from Korea just to show the Chinese I mean business!
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Post by jimstewart on Feb 16, 2008 17:01:58 GMT -7
lol ;D
nice......
Still I would really like all involved thoughts on selecting a drive for now and later? Has anyone done this? Anyone planning 2?
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Post by jagman on Feb 19, 2008 18:16:31 GMT -7
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Post by jimstewart on Feb 20, 2008 9:01:23 GMT -7
Bad Ass .......out of my budget but how sweet is that? 11.7 liters of displacment from a sing driver!!!!!.....(i think i did that math right) Holy #$%&!!!!!!!! Careful chris doesn't scold you for link to another forum .....I'm so conflicted about what direction to go on this.......nice thing about the whole deal is I'm sure I will be happy with whatever I choose.
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Post by jagman on Feb 21, 2008 11:34:25 GMT -7
Kevin at DIY Cable (the guy who's designing/selling this speaker) is a member of this forum so I don't think Thomas will mind.
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Post by diycable on Feb 22, 2008 9:09:49 GMT -7
Kevin at DIY Cable (the guy who's designing/selling this speaker) is a member of this forum so I don't think Thomas will mind. You should ask Thomas though.... I'm just another Joe that comes here. I don't get to ignore the rules although I try sometimes. The driver is big-time vaporware at this point but I'm moving forward to get it built. I'm going to call it the Sicko-18, because you have to be sick in the head to want one. ;D Its not going to be a good IB driver though, sorry Thomas.
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Post by carvernut on Feb 22, 2008 9:47:28 GMT -7
my concerns would be the enormous xmax... you would need astronomical power and motor control to acurately reproduce sound at these kind of excersions... not to mention the delay from the cone inertia from moving from one note to another while trying to slow down or speed up from 5 inches of excersion
it's interesting, but not practical beyond bragging rights... earlier in 2007 i would have sold my soul to have a driver like this, but the accuracy of IB's and what they reveal in music has made me re-think and change almost ever idea that i had of bass and the drivers necessary to produce it.
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Post by jimstewart on Feb 22, 2008 14:15:10 GMT -7
The same was said by "those who aught to know better" when car audio companies started coming out with drivers having xmax's in the 20mm range in the early 90's. Now every major car audio company worth its salt has a driver in the 25-30mm area many even more. More over drivers with very near this performance already exist. Search on the lms-ultra 38mm xmax and a few people on this forum have them and I have read nothing about "slow or muddy bass". 5inch voice coil + bl of 20plus = no issue www.diycable.com/main/pdf/WooferSpeed.pdfinteresting reading to that end (I hope this is ok to post Kevin if not let me know and it will come down asap.) THE REAL BUMMER with this whole thread is that I haven't received a single suggestion(on a driver that exist) on a driver good for a ported enclosure of moderate size now that i could also utilize in a year or 2 in an infinite baffle design?! Come on sure somebodies got some ideas......hit me with um
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Post by chrisbee on Feb 22, 2008 14:36:32 GMT -7
You already seem to know enough about drivers to find your own for a ported box.
The promise of an IB some way down the road does not provide an excuse to post on ported boxes on the only specialist IB forum.
The virtual world is full of general subwoofer design forums as already indicated by your earlier links. You obviously know your way around already.
You are trolling a red herring, Mr Stewart. Only our politeness has given you an excuse to continue with your off-topic behaviour.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Or just confirming my diagnosis?
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Post by ThomasW on Feb 22, 2008 15:23:34 GMT -7
Come on sure somebodies got some ideas......hit me with um Smart money would buy a Tempest-X, but, oh wait they're not made in the US.... Instead buy a SoundSplinter RL-p15/18 or a Fi .Q15/18, and sorry no complaints about the 'made in US pricing'
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Post by carvernut on Feb 22, 2008 19:59:10 GMT -7
The same was said by "those who aught to know better" when car audio companies started coming out with drivers having xmax's in the 20mm range in the early 90's. Now every major car audio company worth its salt has a driver in the 25-30mm area many even more. More over drivers with very near this performance already exist. Search on the lms-ultra 38mm xmax and a few people on this forum have them and I have read nothing about "slow or muddy bass". 5inch voice coil + bl of 20plus = no issue www.diycable.com/main/pdf/WooferSpeed.pdfinteresting reading to that end (I hope this is ok to post Kevin if not let me know and it will come down asap.) THE REAL BUMMER with this whole thread is that I haven't received a single suggestion(on a driver that exist) on a driver good for a ported enclosure of moderate size now that i could also utilize in a year or 2 in an infinite baffle design?! Come on sure somebodies got some ideas......hit me with um ok... i hate windows... i had a long reply typed up and Firefox crashed taking it with it.... Jim... car audio is totally different then home audio and you know it thats why i don't listen to the 1200 watt Memphis amp and custom slot ported D6 Diamond 12 i had in my truck, i used to think it sounded good... after building my IB i can't listen to music in my truck anymore, it's just harsh noise now, and yes the Bl is true to a point... but i don't want to have to go buy a QSC PL6.0 to run my IB... it's just too expensive not to mention the electrical bill that would result. Also, the graph from the orginal driver and the double mass loaded driver doesn't vary much time wise from the original... but look at acuracy... it's way off... the set of 3 pulses on the original are slurred over and bairly caught on the third one... pluse the huge rise on the lower end that is not supposed to be there... that alone proves that mass does affect your output... if it didn't then the blue graph should match the red graph almost perfectly sorry i'm just not convinced that less than 20 bl is the magic cure-all it's just like a heavy, high-horsepower car vs a low weight, lower horsepower car... both with same hp/tonne ratio's... the lighter car almost always wins, it's more agile, more responsive, and faster in exceleration and i still love your products btw... ;D
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