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Post by jimstewart on Feb 23, 2008 8:10:47 GMT -7
Thank you very much for your help Thomas. As per my earlier post that would be a bitter pill to swallow, however the Scotsman's in me does lean that direction.  What can ya do? Chrisbee, I am a little obtuse and abrasive at times. This thread was started to determine the proper selection of a driver for (yes) an ebs design, that will become firewood by the end of 2009. Those same driver(s) will then spend the rest of there usable life in a IB (none manifold) system. So I still respectfully imply that this is an appropriate forum for this discussion.I'm a hobbiest and found all the drivers we have discussed in a few days when I first started looking. I just cant believe that those are the only contenders. God knows I cant go much anyplace else on the net for better advice on infinite baffles.  |
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Post by diycable on Feb 23, 2008 13:08:03 GMT -7
Choose a driver that can pull double duty then. The Tempest-X is suitable for both, although the box sizes for vented alignments are fairly large.
In terms of the made in the USA, for the most part there is no longer any such thing. All the companies, even the small build-houses that do final assembly here are using parts from developing countries. Even the domestic part companies import large amounts of their product. Why? Because they wouldn't be in business and able to compete with cheaper product from elsewhere if they choose to ignore an economic reality. If you ignore economic realities, you go from providing SOME US based jobs to providing ZERO US based jobs.
In terms of manufacturing, its become a low wage, low-skill occupation. If you want more jobs like working for McDonald's, Walmart or other low-skill, low-wage jobs thats exactly what your asking for when you want to keep manufacturing jobs. The line work has become a non-skilled job. Those are going to remain low wage jobs, even if they are done in North America. The only reason historically they where high wage jobs is because of World Wars, and the enviable position the US had of building the first mighty industrial empire. We OWNED manufacturing for a good 50-100 year period and during that time we grew fat and lazy. There is NO WAY that a line worker in a steel mill without even a high school education should earn greater than $100,000/year. Yet... that is what my father did in the late 70's and early 80's. He was a hard worker, fanatic in his work ethic but the exception rather than the rule in steel mills. The unions, the culture in that environment become non-helpful for increasing productivity.
We can argue about the political, social and economic merits of this situation endlessly but its a reality. High wage manufacturing jobs are never going to provide what we once enjoyed.
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Post by diycable on Feb 23, 2008 13:17:26 GMT -7
my concerns would be the enormous xmax... you would need astronomical power and motor control to accurately reproduce sound at these kind of excersions... not to mention the delay from the cone inertia from moving from one note to another while trying to slow down or speed up from 5 inches of excision it's interesting, but not practical beyond bragging rights... earlier in 2007 i would have sold my soul to have a driver like this, but the accuracy of IB's and what they reveal in music has made me re-think and change almost ever idea that i had of bass and the drivers necessary to produce it. Your right... its going to require enormous amounts of power but we are designing around an amplifier and a box design. We went overboard a little on the X-max (55mm) but the linear 42mm will easily be usable with the design we are targeting. Even in free air you shouldn't be able to bottom the driver with 4700W of power. Our goal is to build something that nobody will realistically be able to "one-up" in a meaningful way. I'd also take exception to your comments about cone inertia and accuracy. The available stroke has little to do with accuracy and speed (except in good ways). It will easily be verifiable in distortion testing. If it couldn't accurately output both a 20Hz & 50Hz note simultaneously that is something that is easy to see in multi-tone testing. |
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Post by carvernut on Feb 23, 2008 13:38:42 GMT -7
my concerns would be the enormous xmax... you would need astronomical power and motor control to accurately reproduce sound at these kind of excersions... not to mention the delay from the cone inertia from moving from one note to another while trying to slow down or speed up from 5 inches of excision it's interesting, but not practical beyond bragging rights... earlier in 2007 i would have sold my soul to have a driver like this, but the accuracy of IB's and what they reveal in music has made me re-think and change almost ever idea that i had of bass and the drivers necessary to produce it. Your right... its going to require enormous amounts of power but we are designing around an amplifier and a box design. We went overboard a little on the X-max (55mm) but the linear 42mm will easily be usable with the design we are targeting. Even in free air you shouldn't be able to bottom the driver with 4700W of power. Our goal is to build something that nobody will realistically be able to "one-up" in a meaningful way. I'd also take exception to your comments about cone inertia and accuracy. The available stroke has little to do with accuracy and speed (except in good ways). It will easily be verifiable in distortion testing. If it couldn't accurately output both a 20Hz & 50Hz note simultaneously that is something that is easy to see in multi-tone testing. 4700 watts in free air... thats crazy talk... keep talking ;D what are we looking at something to possibly contend with Digital Designs ultra 18? 180.3dB's from a single sub is staggering... but i'm happy with 130dB's from my HT... it's more than enough at 8hz  and besides if your looking at multi tones your better off with displacement with multiple drivers rather then just one long throw sub... it's just going to fall on its face trying to move 2 speeds at once when it's already at xmax, correct? |
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Post by chrisbee on Feb 23, 2008 14:11:49 GMT -7
If nothing else the IB has proven the enormous value of cone area rather than sheer excursion. The future of sound reproduction lies with huge areas and very small excursions. Perhaps some form of pistonic crystal between ultra-thin, ultra-stiff membranes covering an entire wall and applied just like wallpaper? Good-old-fashioned paper reinforced with carbon nano-tubes is a fine candidate for the membranes. Not some vicious, long throw, air-beater producing more noise than programme material.
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Post by jimstewart on Feb 23, 2008 14:22:58 GMT -7
Well now that is extremely interesting and something I really hadn't considered..........the tempest in an isobaric ebs...... that would be of reasonable design. Giving me a girlfriend friendly sized cab now and a great start on an IB later.  Still china.. I take you points on manufacturing Kevin and agree almost completely with them. My great grand father was the head of a regional machinist union in road island. Near the time of his death he lamented ever having been involved with the union in the first place. Now to find some threads on ported tempest to see what is what. Oh and then sit down to a nice big CROW dinner.  possible. most likely. ;D Hey kev what kinda production cycle's do you run? If I bought a set of tempest x now are they still going to be available in a year or 2? Just a guess would be fine. |
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Post by diycable on Feb 23, 2008 14:52:32 GMT -7
If nothing else the IB has proven the enormous value of cone area rather than sheer excursion. The future of sound reproduction lies with huge areas and very small excursions. Perhaps some form of pistonic crystal between ultra-thin, ultra-stiff membranes covering an entire wall and applied just like wallpaper? Good-old-fashioned paper reinforced with carbon nano-tubes is a fine candidate for the membranes. Not some vicious, long throw, air-beater producing more noise than programme material. Actually.... I think the market is going the other way. The bottom line with what will drive the market is what fits into people's rooms and lives. IBs are a big-time niche market. Its not even remotely on the radar for most companies. I agree that if you have the design flexibility, the extra Sd is valuable for IBs. For box drivers there are other considerations though... other engineering tradeoffs. Mainly that box volume scales with Vas so if you push up the driver size, you push up the enclosure size in proportion to Vas. So.... its a balancing act. If you want a box size you can live with, you have to choose a driver of reasonable size and adding extra stroke is the best way of achieving more output for a given size. |
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Post by diycable on Feb 23, 2008 15:13:25 GMT -7
Well now that is extremely interesting and something I really hadn't considered..........the tempest in an isobaric ebs...... that would be of reasonable design. Giving me a girlfriend friendly sized cab now and a great start on an IB later. Still china.. I take you points on manufacturing Kevin and agree almost completely with them. My great grand father was the head of a regional machinist union in road island. Near the time of his death he lamented ever having been involved with the union in the first place. Hey kev what kinda production cycle's do you run? If I bought a set of tempest x now are they still going to be available in a year or 2? Just a guess would be fine. I don't have anything against unions, they serve a purpose. I think that the pendulum swung too far at one point but unions provide some benefit. They allow workers to have a voice and that isn't all bad. My evil plans for Shiva-X & Tempest-X are to leave them relatively untouched for at least the next several years. As long as they sell, there is no reason to change them. If/when I have updated or better products I'll probably release them as new drivers rather than supplant the existing models. The market is what drives that choice though. If I reach a point where the designs are no longer competitive, or they just are not selling I'll have to make adjustments. |
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Post by carvernut on Mar 26, 2008 13:32:10 GMT -7
isn't the maelstromX perfectly suited for horn use?
hmmm.... bass bin quad 18's anyone?
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Post by jimstewart on Mar 31, 2008 8:47:28 GMT -7
quad 18" horn  ......lmao.......Maybe if you want your neighbors in the next county to hear whatever movie your watching at the time. Oh and you have an entire room or basement in you house your not interested in using... and your ready to replace .........it is the rare driver that is appropriate for horn loading. and rarer still an 18" driver appropriate for a horn. fyi Eaw makes a dual 12" horn (more than enought output) that can hit 140 db A .. its called a BH822e Trouble is that you can find it and almost all other horns on the opposite end of the sound qualities spectrum from the IB systems found on the site. Single note bass anyone?(in all fairness the bh822 sound pritty nice and the output of a 4 unit array is in a word authoritative but whatever I'm not building a horn anytime soon. |
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Post by carvernut on Mar 31, 2008 23:18:09 GMT -7
whoa the BH822e is rated for 139dB's long term  |
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Post by jagman on Jun 9, 2008 23:43:25 GMT -7
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