Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on Apr 12, 2006 19:43:23 GMT -7
I am looking for opinions on this 18"drivers spec. for use in IB configuration. Thanks Darrel
8 ohm fs 19.8 Hz
QT 0.51
Xmax 14.29 mm
Vas 640.9 liters
Pmax 225 Watts
Coil Diameter 2.50 Inches
Magnet Weight 90 ounces
Efficiency 0.90 %
SPL 91.6 dB
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 12, 2006 21:34:32 GMT -7
How's the Xmax measured?
What's the Le, the Re, and the other pertinent T/S parameters?
What kind of surround, what's the cone made from?
And your selling price?
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Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on Apr 13, 2006 5:35:04 GMT -7
Hey Thomas, Thank you for your response. We are still in the early development stages of this driver and I will be able to answerer your questions regarding sound quality soon. I am receiving the first pair of Eng. samples next week for evaluation. I would like to openly discuss this drivers development on this forum but realize that self promotion is often frowned upon on public forums. I looked over your guidelines and didn't find a specific mention of this restriction here. Please accept my apologies if this is out of line. The price point on these will reflect their quality and fair market value. My goal is to offer very high quality at near factory direct pricing. I would also consider incentives and special cult member pricing. First off I need to make sure that we do our job and this is where you guys come in. We are designing these from the ground up to excel in an IB configuration and also to last a very long time. Look for cast frame, Kevlar impregnated paper cone, cloth edge surround . Please note that this is not the old accordion style cloth edge but rather a completely redesigned and proven edge that we selected for it's potential for longevity. This should have a service life of well over 30 years as apposed to perhaps 15 years on the foam edge Xmax is measured by industry standard method , (one way) Re 6.45 Ohms Le 6.20 mH These prams are still open and pending. Design goals are simple ,,,,,,,, create a very good sounding and performing driver that will do it's intended job for a very long time and represent a great value to it's owner. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or considerations regarding myself or our company. Thanks in advance for your responses Regards Darrel
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 13, 2006 12:16:02 GMT -7
Well it certainly sounds interesting. The old cloth surrounds were noisey at higher excursion levels. Hopefully you've solved that issue.
Just so you know you'll have competition, I can't say much but in ~6 mos there will be another 18" IB driver. 18mm Xmax, Fs~16Hz, yada, yada, yada, for $139 ea in lots of 4pcs
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Post by lhreeves on Apr 13, 2006 12:44:09 GMT -7
That's not nice Thomas. I haven't even been able to get my IB installed yet and you are already teasing me with new affordable drivers.
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Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on Apr 13, 2006 13:33:11 GMT -7
Hey Thomas, Thanks for the heads up on the competition... I don't think we are going to get too wrapped up in price wars . I cannot see that being very profitable at that price unless they have very low manufacturing costs. We, as some of you already know, work with Eminence LLC and all our drivers are made in the USA. I am confident that we will not be the lowest price but hope to offer high quality and very good customer service. In addition to the 18" driver mentioned above, we are also developing a nice 15" drive unit for use in applications not needing the bigger driver. I will post it's prams as soon as I receive them. So, What would be on your wish lists? Here is your chance to actually participate in a real time creation of a soon to be released new product. I am interested in the collective experience of actual users of these drivers and want to create what you guys tell me you need. As we move further into the design process I will be looking for beta testers to audition these new drivers in actual working systems. I cannot offer beta tester anything other than gratitude and thanks as their findings and reviews would need to be above question. I want our products to stand or fall on their own merit. Thank you for letting me introduce our products here on this forum. I was very much into IB several years ago and took a slight departure into high end 2 channel audio. Well , several years later I find myself back here and now I have something to offer back to all the guys that have helped us get where we are. Thanks especially to you Thomas for keeping this going. Regards Darrel Ps. The Name of our line of drivers is "Silver Iris" We currently have two OB drivers that are enjoying some measure of commercial success with audiophiles. www.hawthorneaudio.com/
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 13, 2006 13:48:43 GMT -7
Hi,
My post was just an FIY, not trying to create a price war.
I don't have a long 'wish' list.
Any driver with a stiff cone, no vent chuffing, reasonably low Fs and a Q in the 0.5 range is good, I'm not a fan of the standard 0.69 Q for OB subs. Given the boost room gain provides, I'll always choose slightly overdamped or critically damped, over maximally flat.
Shorting rings to lower distortion, and a low Le are always a good things....
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Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on Apr 13, 2006 14:05:08 GMT -7
Hey Thomas, I requested shorting rings on the 18" but I think they said no go. We will see them on the 15" If I remember correctly. We may see several changes before we actualy have a marketable product. I went through many revisions and trials on the OB's I have them on the 15" Ob Augie and they are a big +. Qt .51 fits with your ideal. What would you consider low on the LE spec.? Looks like this one is coming in at 6.20 mH Darrel
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 13, 2006 14:28:28 GMT -7
The Le is on the high side. It would be better to see something in the 3 or 4 mH range. Just depends on how the design compromises work out.
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Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on Apr 15, 2006 17:36:50 GMT -7
Time will tell. I understand that one of their high end pro audio drivers (DEFINIMAX MAGNUM-) uses this new surround and so far so good. [ftp]http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=290-586&DID=7[/ftp]
The real test will be how it does in an actual IB configuration.
Have any of you experienced foam breakdown on modern drivers? We have all seen this on the older foams but I would speculate that the newer ones are better.
Any reports on foam or paper breakdown from being in an attic or crawl space environment? Thanks Darrel
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Post by ThomasW on Apr 15, 2006 19:12:01 GMT -7
Had older foam turn to dust, no problems at all with the newer formulas.
I guess the way to test the new cloth surround design is 50% or more of Xmax at 30Hz. If they aren't noisey then things are probably good.
Since the forum first opened (2000), there's never been a report of a driver failure due to exposure to the elements.
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Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on Apr 15, 2006 21:31:47 GMT -7
Hey Thomas, That's good news and quite remarkable . Things certainly have come a long way in the last decade. I will test as you suggest and evaluate for any sound problem. Thanks Darrel
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Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on Apr 17, 2006 7:01:18 GMT -7
Hey Guys,
Looks like we will see a displacement figure of around 3.395 liters. Looking at Robs driver chart I would think that we should be able to come in as AVG. displacement and If I can keep the final costs on target, we should be one of the better values in terms of $/per liter . That is if we take into consideration special pricing to cult members on multiple unit purchases..
I will have samples in house this week and will see how close everything turns out... Stay tuned..... Regards Darrel
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Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on Apr 22, 2006 13:36:17 GMT -7
Hey Guys,
The drivers arrived this last Thursday and they are very nice. These are the largest drivers I have ever worked with and of course I am blown way by them. This begs the question however, will you guys be blown away? I have lots of experience evaluating 2 channel audiophile type speaker systems and am comfortable in doing product development with these types of drivers. My consideration is that I lack the first hand experience that many of you have here with regard to IB's So... I am seeking Beta tester for these new drivers . both the current 18" and the soon to be created 15" versions. I am looking for a person that already has a system in place that uses 18" drivers Ideally they would be running an array or manifold that could hold four 18" drivers. We would simply replace two of the current drivers with our test mules and have a go at a shootout. This of course could be done with just one of ours going into a two driver system.
Anybody build a manifold for four 18's but only have two running now? Anybody have four running that would like to swap out two for a test?
Please contact me directly if you would be interested in participating in this test. Thank you very much Darrel [ftp]hawthorne@hawthornraudio.com[/ftp]
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Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on May 14, 2006 13:52:29 GMT -7
Hey Guys, The 18" Silver Iris IB B.A.D. drivers have finally been shipped out to the first Beta tester (Brady) and he should have them this next week. I will be looking forward to his initial response to these and hopefully we can get some real world experience feedback soon.. I have received numerous e-mail requests for pricing and confirmation on the rumor that these drivers were designed by your very own Jerry McNutt... Yes we are very proud to confirm that Jerry has been the designer for the entire Silver Iris line of OB and IB drivers.It has been a pleasure working with him and we have many more projects in the works... I have a dollar figure in mind but I want to wait till I have performance conformation from an unbiased third part before I release any official pricing. We will be offering volume discounts and special cult member incentives as best we can... Stay tuned .... Darrel
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Post by ThomasW on May 16, 2006 10:08:13 GMT -7
Hi Darrel, Good news about the drivers being tested. And very happy to know our man McJerry (his nick name) is in the development loop....
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Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on May 29, 2006 16:31:50 GMT -7
Hey Guys, The first Beta test is in the final stages and should be done soon... Anybody wanting to test drive this 18" driver may contact me and we will arrange it. Our thanks to Brady for his hard work and many trips up and down to swap wires..... Thanks Darrel
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brady
Full Member
Posts: 238
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Post by brady on May 31, 2006 19:59:46 GMT -7
Well, as Darrel said, I'm finished with the test drive of the Silver Iris IB B.A.D. 18's. i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/ABAlshouse/100_0728.jpgi2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/ABAlshouse/100_0733.jpgWhen they arrived, I measured the top and sure enough, they were smaller than mine. I was thinking about what kind of adapter would be needed to make it work. After I pulled my drivers, I saw that the cut out was exactly the right size and it was only the flange that was smaller. Next, I needed a way to easily switch the wires back and forth. A couple of stackable banana plugs did the trick. i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/ABAlshouse/100_0740.jpgThen I needed a way to block off one or the other set of speakers quickly. Two scrap OSB and two spring-sticks (my manifold is rectangular) worked well. i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/ABAlshouse/100_0742.jpgFinally, I had to do one more thing to make sure there were no mishaps and that was to keep our mascot, IB, from participating in the testing process. BTW, wife now likes the name. i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/ABAlshouse/100_0753.jpgAll right, so here's the test procedures and methods I used: OK, I really didn't go through a litany of graphs and charts (too boring). Basically, all I did was play bass heavy music and movie clips switching back and forth between the two Iris IB B.A.D. 18's and the two Avalanche 18's. Not really a fair fight as the Avalanche have twice the Xmax and Vd. Or so I thought. I couldn't hear any difference on any tunes except one--Eagles, 'Hell Freezes Over', where the Avalanche had more weight to them. Now to be fair, my music collection doesn't have anything in it with extremely low bass (like Thomas' bassy CD list), just plain ol' rock n' roll. With movies it was close but a little more bottom end on the AV's. So I decided it was time to push things a little by dropping in WOTW. I pushed play and kept my finger on the stop button waiting for the Iris to make that horrible sound of the driver bottoming out. They didn't have any problems with it at all. I also went downstairs and put my ear next to the surround and heard no noise. I did the same thing with the AV's and heard this terrible rattling noise. I put my hand on the frame and clamps trying to find out what it was. Then it hit me--Doh! Forgot to switch the panels inside the manifold, they were vibrating so hard it knocked the spring-stick loose! Well, after all that fun, I would say that I never expected the Iris to even come close to the AV's. In fact, I got fooled once when I popped in Titan AE and played the Ice Field scene. It had been a while since I played it and forgot how great the bass is in that movie. After that scene I wanted to see how the Silver Iris IB B.A.D. would do with it and went downstairs only to discover that I just did! So who's next to test drive them?
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Post by chrisbee on Jun 1, 2006 0:03:53 GMT -7
Good stuff.
But did you try all four drivers at once? ;D
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Darrel
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Darrel on Jun 1, 2006 4:56:47 GMT -7
Hey Brady, I wanted to once again thank you for all your work and especial for the time spent not only testing but also the fantastic job of documenting your experience. The pictures are a big help ! The picture of your mascot, IB is priceless! They just can't help themselves... they got to be in on the action all the time .... We have two., They seem to like watching the movies as well....They sit on the tops of our chairs and are mesmerized by the motion on the screen. ( sort of like us) I currently have all the smaller 15" beta test units out or spoken for... sorry ( figure a couple weeks before some of these drivers to become available for further testing). The 18", however is up for grabs.... Darrel
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